Dennis Kimetto - what are we Westerners still missing about Kenyan Marathoners?

Why are you even having this VO2 debate?

Vo2max isn't a performance indicator

Unless you're cycling up a mountain at world record speed like Chris froome you won't be limited by a lower than superlative vo2 max

This isn't new news..

rojo wrote:

It will be interesting to see if as Kenya gets more developed if their average height increases. If so, I imagine they'll slow down.

I really think it's more of a socio-economic thing than anything else. Put Kimetto in a typical American family from childhood and he'll be the same texting, social media animal that most American young people are. Going to college, getting a white collar job, nice income, nice lifestyle -- those will his goals -- not running 2:02.

I think genetics is a factor but socio-economic factors are much, much bigger. When Kenya becomes a wealthy, developed country then their stream of marathon record breakers will end. You can even see it now with their successful marathoners. When they get enough money to set themselves up in business they quit -- they don't continue into their 30s -- what would be the purpose?

I didn't mention "genetics" because I think that the jury is still out on that one. not every Kenyan/Ethiopian can run well - even those born in the "correct" geographical region as a member of the "correct" tribe/ethnic grouping. The list of reasons I put forward was probably not complete but was made up of factors that I think most people would agree with. How you would prioritise those reasons is a matter of personal opinion.

More generally, if you want to be a world class jumper or vaulter most people would agree that certain facilities are needed. These may not be easily accessible in many African countries. to train for a marathon what facilities do you need? Hills? Somewhere pleasant to run? Nice off road terrain to ease the strain on the legs? All these things are readily available in Kenya/Ethiopia. African countries have not yet made any noticeable impact on endurance sports such as cycling and rowing which are much, much more expensive to compete in at any level approaching world class. Distance running is still very much a cheap simple sport in comparison - ideally suited to countries that have not yet attained the level of prosperity taken for granted in the US and most of Eurpe.

Good points except for getting overzealous about generalizing and being vague about genetics. What do "we" or "you" mean by "genetics"? And point 1 isn't a good example. To some extent, recruiting the top high school performers/talent has selected for the best runner genetics. But that's a small extent. The college recruiters are selecting for high schoolers who have performed the best. Unless you run a huge population study and control for variables, all you can say about that for sure is that the best conditioned high schoolers are getting recruited. College recruiters also have an institutional programme to satisfy--they are not athlete-centered. They have a salary to earn, bureaucrats to satisfy, scholarship restrictions, performances to squeeze out of athletes, etc. etc. It's not like with the NBA since the draft of 1995-1996 which started a trend of taking talented athletes right out of high school for future investment--dudes who for the most part were not suited to make an immediate impact against vicious professional adults.

There are genes passed down from a long lineage, and then there are epigenetics that may bestow negative or positive effects based on stressors recent parents experienced.

And then, factors that activate genes must be considered and that is also a very complex question straddling the realms of "nature" vs. "nurture."

Point is, the genetic part of the equation is more complicated than gets credit. To obscure the nuances is dumb for a team of Running nuts trying to encourage training knowledge, clarity, use of resources and pursuit of dreams.

Still, the brojos imo don't pay enough attention to the non-genetic factors which are responsible for driving performance in genetically talented and untalented people alike.

Along those lines, kudos! because this thread has done a great job in pouring in new ideas that I hadn't even thought of in this regard. I kind of want to compile some of the best ideas in my post... more on that later.

It's now a mainstream idea (See recent issue of Time magazine) that a lot of sitting and indoor sedentary lifestyle that predominates in our contemporary Society and actually has so many justifications/functions, is detrimental to overall health, fitness and recovery. This can go part of the way into explaining why some young athletes who hadn't trained specifically in running--say, they did soccer and football instead--respond to training well. And kind of like what Coach Canova was saying in other threads recently--that general conditioning is not just a foundation but has readied genes--gene expression--for favorable activation in the lifetime.

The whole "stick" legs discussion has genetic components but is also circular and defeating. For example, the Japanese were cited as being short and stocky. Perhaps they were always this way, if some poster wants to bring up anthropological evidence pre-dating the Americans forcing the Japanese to open up to trade. But Japan was the most conspicuous example in the non-Western world of a society very intensely and quickly ubiquitously adopting all the facets of Western industrial civilization. Which was paramount in the saga of the cataclysm of the second world war and the expansion of Imperial Japan. Asian people also have a lot of diversity, too and their gene expression depends on historical environmental factors. Since europe overtook Asia with the advent of the printing press, Asia has been playing catchup. The 20th century was a NIGHTMARE for Asia--the Khmer rouge apocalyptic atrocities, the Vietnam nightmare, the rise of Communism in China after abuse by European powers and Imperial Japan...; North Korea; Imperial Japan. I see a lot of tall young bucks of Chinese and Korean descent these days, some of them coming from families with no apparently tall forerunners. Perhaps there are historical bottlenecks on the appearance of slender and tall Asians. Point is, not to make over-generalizations.

How do we know the real extent to which white Americans are so much suckier than Eldoret Kenyans at distance running? It would be interesting to bring in more anthropological studies of Kenyan peoples before the modern era, but the fact is, as Westerners and Americans we've been suffering from and accumulating epigenetic deficits against distance running favorability for a long time from

post-industrial civilization:

mechanized jobs, sitting, institutional school, artificial light, cars, television, urbanization, you name it, the list can go on and on and on.

It's just not a fair comparison until we find the Eldoret of America.

Some interesting ideas:

survivorship/success bias (can't remember who posted about it)

We see the athletes who had extreme success, not the ones who tried and failed (for elite Kenyan running pursuit).

And there is a very fostering culture/structure/support complex going on. Abebe Bikila inspired East Africans to show up in the W. civilization's white man athletics. Milestone breakthrough Kenyan athletes, successively, in the 60s, 70s and 80s inspired stranger and neighbor alike, brought an influx of coaching and other resources, etc. Some posters in this thread have already noted the components of a hyper-culture that exist in some small rural/semi-rural areas of running parentage and active farmers. This culture is contextualized and has a power for its native denizens--it wouldn't mean the same to an American expatriate going there. For the vast talent pool that has the fortune of being in proximity and enjoying this structure, one can imagine tens of thousands more Kenyans, miserable in poverty living in slums, or fat and sickly working office jobs in corrupt crowded urban metropolises, etc. Maybe some of those unrunnerly Kenyans might fare better than their unrunnerly American counterparts if made to run but that's irrelevant. What's relevant is the otherworldly Kenyan distance running achievements are the product of a confluence of factors that create a result greater than the parts. Writing it off as some vague idea of "genetics" only is a cop-out that obscures us from insights that may benefit us in untold ways.

An interesting side note, El Guerrouj was recently in a village at the foot of the Atlas Mts promoting the sport to rural areas on the occasion of his birthday when he remarked that growing up in a "urban" environment next to the "stadium" was key in his ascent to and development in the sport.

A poster--can't remember if it was in this thread or another Kimetto-inspired thread--noted that "nerds" who may not fit the mould of the mesomorphic all-American team sport ideal have many many pursuits to be passionate about and this comes with the great diversity and abundance of contemporary American society--you can add to that other factors that might detract from a pool of potential runners and from a potential community of aspiring runners (N.E.S.T., or sitting activity, time spent indoors, nutrition, etc. etc.)

Here are some nice posts from this thread.

*Correction:

Canova talked about the general conditioning. It's my theory that this general conditioning has a second order effect of preparing the genes for favorable activation/expression (favorable/hyper response) to running training.

Another thought:

People in Western civilization have not necessarily been selected against parameters of physical strength and endurance but it seems like the "Eldoret" type Kenyans have enjoyed a longer period of time uninterrupted by historical events that might diminish a body type suited for long distance running. Just a vague hunch, but there's something to this. I'm a bit worn out mentally, can't elaborate.

I was also thinking about some posts--more than one poster and spanning more than just this thread but threads from perhaps a few years ago--talking about the phenomenal results you would see if picking up random Kenyans from areas predisposed to running, whilst comparing that to a similar attempt in the United States. And I agree, the disparity would be so titanic that to simply say "genetics" and call it a day is laughable.

The disparity is so severe that I want to give the following example. (It is not directly analogous but serves a purpose of illuminating how the vastness of disparity should make us think deeply about its components rather than look for simple cop-outs)

If you took a sample of very poor, rural and even illiterate Indian sub-continent children/teenagers (or do this for similar population groups in third world countries) and administered the SAT or graduate school tests, AP tests, etc. and compared them with upper middle class suburbanite offspring of Ivy League professionals, the disparity in results would be laughable.

There are so many components of American lifestyles, cultures and subcultures, which would stand as reasons why your average American young adult or adult is not living a life that thinks in terms of running 10k. 35m 10k for men would be a remarkable result and probably only in American communities with distance runners or very fit people. The disparity is going to be more vast and more significant than that. The golden talent pool from which the Kenyan stars are sprouting out of? There's more to the story than them being of a certain skin color or skinny... How have they been living? What did they do in their childhood and middle school years? What are they thinking and dreaming of? What are they doing when they are not exercising or being active? Who are they hanging with, what pressures are they facing, what distractions do they have? And then answer the question for their parents, and their parents parents...

rojo wrote:

All of it goes together. Yes, the Brits used to have great sub 2:20 depth. So did AMerica. What the hell does that have to do with running 2:02? NOt much.

Rojo

What is just as as remarkable as the Kenyan improvement in marathon times is the dramatic decline in distance running performances in Europe and many other non-African countries.

The British record for the Marathon (2-07 xx) was set 30 years ago. The Oceana (2-07 xx) record for the marathon is also around 30 years old. The marathon records for countries like Spain and Portugal (2-06 xx) are around 15 years old.

What were the Kenyan records for the marathon back then?

Over the last 30 years, what has changed in Europe and many other western countries that has basically led to a halt in progress in distance running?

Its called participation and completing now.Competing is not fun, colour runs are and I can go on and on.There is no such thing as lifestyle running in Kenya with your ipod,Garmin,adidas boost etc etc.Sad but true look at the USA results in the 80s an you will be shocked at the depth in marathon running.Our country suffers the same fate numbers at races are up by times are pathetic.But then again running is for fun,enjoyment and a healthly lifestyle.

The point here is a distribution of talent in a population.

There are more Rupps in the Kalenjin(sp?) than in

Europe/USA.

stop fff wrote:

Dude stop making comments about physiology. You keep showing that you don't know what you're talking about and you read sloppily. Efficiency is not king. You are allowed to injest fuel.

So you are saying running economy is not an important factor in Marathon running?

[quote]coach e.. wrote:

Unless you're cycling up a mountain at world record speed like Chris froome you won't be limited by a lower than superlative vo2 max

[quote]

Explain why it only matters in this situation.

it is of(f) course a major factor.

yyy wrote:

it is of(f) course a major factor.

Well I know, but this guy claims it's not.

I believe running economy is the biggest advantage the Kenyans have.

I don't think they would stand above the rest in other endurance sports.

objectivity wrote:

rojo wrote:

All of it goes together. Yes, the Brits used to have great sub 2:20 depth. So did AMerica. What the hell does that have to do with running 2:02? NOt much.

Rojo

What is just as as remarkable as the Kenyan improvement in marathon times is the dramatic decline in distance running performances in Europe and many other non-African countries.

The British record for the Marathon (2-07 xx) was set 30 years ago. The Oceana (2-07 xx) record for the marathon is also around 30 years old. The marathon records for countries like Spain and Portugal (2-06 xx) are around 15 years old.

What were the Kenyan records for the marathon back then?

Over the last 30 years, what has changed in Europe and many other western countries that has basically led to a halt in progress in distance running?

Defeatism. When Geb et al suddenly removed 15 seconds from the 5k record people running 13:10 started thinking why bother?

One well known runner said "It makes you want to quit".

I wouldn't be surprised to see a wave of retirements after this latest drop in the record.

Here's my take. The exact percentage is just a WAG to show relative importance.

40% Genetics

25% Culture

20% Environment (that over time affects genetic expression)

05% Elite Coaching

10% Other/Something else

Culture is probably the most important after genetics. Example: There are 25 Samoans in the NFL compared to one(?) Chinese. Yet the population of Samoa is 184,000 compared to 1.2 billion in China. This can be be explained by genetics and culture.

Genetics: I ran behind a group of Kenyans warming up for our local marathon and I was stunned at how slight their build was. Their lower legs were just bone covered with skin up to a half-baseball sized calf muscle just below the knee. They were built to run long distances.

Cant anyone acknowledge the difference in physique between a typical Kenyan runner and European/white runner?

They will excel neither in cycling nor in CC skiing.

The Kenyans also seem to have muscles that look pumped and almost inflated.

When you watched Bob Kennedy run you could really see the difference. His muscles looked like slack ropes next to the almost rubbery appearance of the typical African.

It's like he had the engine they did but flat tires.

jujuman wrote:

Has anyone ever seen a white man built like Kimetto? No, thats because Kenyans are built differently. This is a major part of the difference.

Please don't point to a skinny white runner and tell me they are built the same

I really have the same build