Dennis Kimetto - what are we Westerners still missing about Kenyan Marathoners?

malmo wrote:

Well then, efficiency isn't VO2max is it? So if you were really talking about efficiency, aka running economy, then why were you talking about efficiency in the first place?

You are really a scatterplot of incoherent ideas. Who said that SOM "works 10x better" than JDFRF (whatever that is?)

Because I'm interested in the whole picture.

I said it works better(for me) than Jack Daniels f*cking Running Formula. I thought you might have some insight into what it is developing exactly.

I guess it doesn't matter if it works.

Gene Summons wrote:[/b

NO correlation? Really?

Excuse me. I should have said LOW correlation. Fixed.

Gene Summons wrote:

malmo wrote:

But the study clearly shows that there is NO correlation between VO2max and performace. What don't you understand about that?

NO correlation? Really?

That study he posted gave r values between -.55 and -.81... that is basically no correlation

Daniels uses 'VDOT' for race prediction...and for good reason; VO2max alone doesn't take into account the efficiency of oxygen utilization.

Stephen MichaelJames Ovett. wrote:

Because I'm interested in the whole picture.

I said it works better(for me) than Jack Daniels f*cking Running Formula. I thought you might have some insight into what it is developing exactly.

I guess it doesn't matter if it works.

But Summer of malmo isn't Jack Daniels. They have different goals. SOM is in-between season training to prepare you for the next step -your xc seasons. It is specifically designed to keep you mentally and physically fresh. It is specifically designed to be easy. If it worked for you then good for you.

Sciatica Road wrote:

Daniels uses 'VDOT' for race prediction...and for good reason; VO2max alone doesn't take into account the efficiency of oxygen utilization.

"performance is the result of many factors, including the maximum rate at which your body can process oxygen, your lactate threshold, and the mechanical efficiency of your stride. The calculator lumps the effects of all these factors into a single variable called VDOT".

VDOT is just based on race times. You look up your time, get a VDOT value, and compare it to training paces and other race times that supposedly line up. Just like IAAF tables, Purdy tables, Macmillan, or whoever else's opinion.

HardLoper wrote:

VDOT is just based on race times. You look up your time, get a VDOT value, and compare it to training paces and other race times that supposedly line up. Just like IAAF tables, Purdy tables, Macmillan, or whoever else's opinion.

Well, you're sort of correct; except rather than "compare it to training paces", one hopes to derive correct training paces, for a given training distance, from their associate VDOT value.

Sciatica Road wrote:

... one hopes to derive correct training paces, for a given training distance, from their associate VDOT value.

Personally, I think it is a good start in methodical derivation of running stimulus to engender the physiological changes benefitting improvement, but can be improved upon, particularly for evaluation of recovery, with heart rate measurements.

George Atlas wrote:

jujuman wrote:

Has anyone ever seen a white man built like Kimetto? No, thats because Kenyans are built differently. This is a major part of the difference.

Please don't point to a skinny white runner and tell me they are built the same

Spot on. Its not the whole explanation but you don't see any white runners built like the Kenyans. And they all look that way.

When the Kenyans first started dominated the US roads in early 1990's I never saw a group of runners that looked like that. Very thin and long legs, but not skinny. Small muscles and large quads that narrowed down to minuscule lower legs.

Built for power and efficiency.

The very best tend to look like insects a bit, and move like them. Slow people look and move more like larvae. The metamorphosis does not happen easily, that is for sure.

I understand one can only change their body so much, but the very manner in which the greatest runners move gives us a hint as to how we are supposed to feel when we run. By focusing on that feel of emulating Bernard Lagat when we run it actually redistributes our body mass to be in the manner his is as well, however miniscually the change may be.

Turn THOSE genes on, the ones that allow for rapid evolution of your nervous system and then throw your hat back in the ring.

Who's testing? wrote:

Who handles the out of competition drug testing in Kenya? Most doping is done during training periods, so it's much less likely for an athlete to get popped in a competition test. Do the East Africans have testers banging on their doors in the middle of the night for surprise controls like the top Western Europeans and Americans do?

Ask John Ngugi.

Breathe in breathe out wrote:

Who's testing? wrote:

You really think every single Kenyan just trains harder than Ritz, Yuki Kawauchi, Meb,

Not necessarily, but every single Kenyan doesn't beat Yuki, Ritz, and Meb either... the vast majority of them don't. It is still a huge numbers game

This is the correct answer

High Bred Artist wrote:

OP, and quite a few others here, I'll assume you've never stood next to someone like Kimetto. If you were to stand next to him, both of you in just your running shorts, you wouldn't be asking this question.

Dude is a totally different animal. I question how "westerners" can be as close to these lungs-on-sticklegs "africans" as they are. It's really amazing the different morphology.

^This

I run against a number of 3rd rate Kenyans in Lidingöloppet

30 km XC race in Stockholm every year. When I stand beside them at the starting line I can´t believe how small and thin they are. They look like a bunch of 13 year old boys.

It is just a numbers game. Kenya has more unsuccessful marathoners than any other country and they have more successful marathoners. Kenya leads the world at having marathoners that run between 2:10 and 2:20 also.

Sarcastic Third Tit wrote:

A sarcastic East Africa...now I've seen it all.

NativeSon wrote:

Now we have better scientists than the West!

Truly!

We'll get Nobel Prizes in medicine and physics and whatever else. I can't wait. When do they announce the Prizes? December?

The Kenyan in the Oval Office already got his Noble Peace Prize.

badyahboom

Wow. I was busy writing the WTW all day and can\'t believe people keep stating things on here.

A few obvious points.

1) The concept of denying genetics playing a huge role is laughable. IF genetics didn\'t have a huge role, then college coaches woudn\'t recruit. THey\'d just take any athlete and train them up.

2) There are poor people with high pain tolerances all over the world. Billions of them. Very few of them are good at distance running. What the hell is the Indian national record for 26.2?

3) If genetics aren\'t important, then why are women slower than men? If genetics aren\'t important, then why can\'t a labrador be trained to beat a greyhound. Why can\'t a Kenyan be trained to beat an American in the 100m (the national record in Kenya is 10.26 in the m100).

All of it goes together. Yes, the Brits used to have great sub 2:20 depth. So did AMerica. What the hell does that have to do with running 2:02? NOt much.

Yes lots and lots of AMericans are lazy. They don\'t train. We could have scores of people running 2:15. Even many running 2:09. 2:02 not so much.

Off to bed.

Rojo

Letsrun can't stand the fact that Kimetto puts the lie to the ideas they've committed their lives to.

Since you asked wrote:

Better PED's?

Less stringent testing??

Dr. Rosa???

Cycling has proven that American are way behind the Africans when it comes to "PED's".

missing various things wrote:

The East Africans may very well have superior talent but it does not explain their ability to push each other to newer and bigger heights. They did not stop at 2:06 when that was the gold standard they just kept pushing it. The rest of the world seems to have outliers that pop up every once in a while then go back to mediocrity. That is the biggest evidence for me of a significant non-talent factor. Once you throw in the fact as mentioned before that you have a british woman run 2:15 and no one has even touched that, it even more specious to blame your genetics alone.

Of course it does. When you have that much talent fighting for limited dollars, it's tooth and nail. If you have to beat multiple 2:05 guys to get the 50,000 top prize, then you have to run 2:04. If more 2:04 guys appear, you have to run 2:03, and so on. The Africans aren't running for a specific time. That's a bonus. They're running for top prize money and if it means running faster and faster, then that's what they have to do.