Training Discussion Thread - outsiderunner

Thanks for the comments. Will look to cash in on the day off. Regarding the upcoming race, all of the races are on different courses, and this week’s race will be a 5-miler...a hilly 5-miler. The rest will be 5k races.

The WS is a points series, with awards at the end (overall, age group, etc.) and so wins are nice...they boost one’s point total. That said, I am running this series with your purposes in mind. So, whatever you want me to learn or execute in a race is fine with me. I would not mind trying to get behind the leader and then blast, but it is up to you. It is also a 5-miler this time.

Regading Juan, it is hard to predict whether he will show up. It would be nice if he does, as I might want to try running behind him, and then see how it goes.

What should I do? Interesting question. I want to do whatever will make me a better runner.

Hey Mr. Miyagi...Any ideas for Saturday yet? I took today off, as my cold symptoms got worse. May even take off tomorrow, if I do not improve. Weather looks pretty bad for Saturday...22 and no sun. Cold and big winds here for the next couple of days.

Ran yesterday's workout today, as I was just getting back into things yesterday, and did not want to push it since I have been sick. I am feeling better today (probably about 80%). but the cold and the wind were a real bear in today's run. Thus, I approached the MP block on a mile-by-mile basis, figuring I would get what I could and see what happens. I felt better once I finally got warm, but the wind was like a wall at times (40+ mph gusts). Went 10.13 miles, and attempted six MP miles, going 6:32, 6:35, 6:20, 6:16, 6:11, 6:08 for the block (averaging 6:20.3). All things considered, I was happy to get that. Conditions look COLD for the 5-miler on saturday.

Some really good decisions this week. I’m glad you took a day off and also backed down the mileage this week. You needed it. I am also doing the same thing.

I am also glad you listened to your body instead of your watch with the workout. You should always do that when you are feeling off, and just take what the run gives you.

If your weather is like ours in NJ, it has been incredibly windy and bone chilling. The temps themselves have been in the 20s/30s each morning but the winds have been ridiculously strong and make the “feels like” in the teens or single digits.

I would play things by ear with the race. If you still aren’t feeling great, you might want to consider bypassing this one especially if the weather is awful. If it is a race series and you have points to protect, that’s how I would treat it. Race only for the best position you can and don’t worry about time AT ALL.

I would encourage you to tuck directly behind someone of equal ability and try to steal it near the end if you have it in you. If not, just do your best to hold position.

5 miles can be tricky. Most local runners only have 5k racing experience and mess up the distance by going out too hard and not having the strength near the end. I have no doubt you have strength, especially on hills. This could be a race where you place very well if you are feeling okay enough to race it.

Thanks for the good advice. Will do as you suggest and tuck in behind someone, and see what happens. If I feel like trash, I will skip the race entirely.

Our weather has been the same as yours in NJ...windy and bone chilling. There was one gust today that psuhed me to the side as I ran.

I am glad you like what I have done this week. I keep you in mind with all of my decisions, trying to do what you would do.

Was asked by a sales rep today about my upcoming races, and so I was talking about Boston for a bit, and feeling some excitement. I am very pleased that I could run decently while being being sick. This tells me that things are moving in the right direction. Thank you.

A major milestone today, Mr. Miyagi.

Today was the day that I beat Matt, one of the top runners here in the valley. A 33:50/2:36 guy. Never thought I would get close to him, let alone beat him. I have been getting fairly close to him lately...and today I passed him on a turn at the mile 4 mark. “A fast field today,” my friend Mike said to me prior to the race, and quickly added, “Including you.” And it was a good field, with both Kevin (14:48 PR), the aforementioned Matt (10 or 11 years younger than I), some unknown fast guy who ended up in second, and Juan (age 29) in the mix. I did my best to follow your plan, and so my aim was set upon Juan and Matt.

So, 27 degrees, hilly (with an uphill finish), and not much wind. Went out trying to keep with Matt and Juan. Of course, some guy who did not belong there kept getting in my way in the first mile or so, throwing off my rhythm. Once I got ahead of him, things started to smooth out. The second mile was very hilly, with some gravel surfaces, and I could see Matt and Juan running side by side, with Grayson ahead. My goal was go close the gap on them and get behind them. It took a while. Juan dropped Matt and then I started to work on Matt. Also, Grayson was starting to crack after the 3 mark (he is my boss’ number 1 xc kid, age 17). At about 3.6, Matt catches Grayson, and I am now on Matt’s heels. So, we both basically pass Grayson. I get behind Matt. I see the mile 4 sign go by, and a turn coming up. I think, “Do it now, or he might outkick you.” Feeling good, I pass Matt, knowing that the last .8 is all uphill. To be precise, rollers with an uphill tilt the whole way.

I started to gain on Juan, but never caught him. I was all too happy to be ahead of Matt and to hear his footsteps fade away. Juan was third, beating me by :08, and I was fourth with Matt :09 behind me. Grayson was fifth and :15 behind me. Times were unimpressive. Mine was 29:25 (5:53 pace). I felt good pretty much the whole way, running 5:48, 6:03, 5:51, 5:50, 5:44. A neg. split and a decent last mile, conisdering the uphill. Still had a bit left in the tank. Finished with a smile on my face.

With snow on the way, I ran extra miles in the cool down. Warm up was 2, race was 5, and cool down was 5. I was figuring with 5-6 inches of snow in the forecast that it may prevent me from running tomorrow, esp. if it freezes overnight.

Just after finishing, Matt said to me: “Your training is paying off.” Some nice words from a fine runner.

Nice race and race report. It takes guts to make a move still facing an uphill mile.

Thanks very much, Sub 6:00. How are you feeling?

Good! A little beat from today’s long run, but everything is holding together. It was nice not having any real wind this morning. (This week has been blustery; presumably you had similar weather.) Listened to a little Rush after I got done.

Yes! The absence of wind this morning was quite welcome. Would like to listen to some Rush right now, but my wife is napping...she caught my cold.

Good racing today, OR. Sounds like you are getting over that cold.

I am glad you beat a runner who usually beats you. That’s a great feeling. Sounds like you worked the hills to your advantage, which is smart. Always try to play to your strengths.

Even despite the hilly course, the cold temps, and the fact you were getting over having a cold, the time was still respectable. I wasn’t really concerned about the time with this race as you know. The purpose was to protect your points in the series and work on a new tactic - which you did, surging a long way out before the hill.

I would point out my only very small criticism was you reported feeling pretty much good the whole way with a little left in the tank. It may have been the sickness, it may have been just playing it smart and not wanting to push too hard, but it sounds like you usually end up within :10 or so of this other guy Juan and you still have some in the tank at the end.

Next race, as long as there are no illness symptoms, just go with him straight from the gun and hold on. Don’t allow any separation, just stalk him relentlessly until the finish and at some point pass him - no matter what it takes.

That’s a tactic best left for maybe a shorter race (5k) when you are feeling better. Not necessarily a criticism about today.

This run was still a big victory. You are making great progress and making sound training decisions, including throwing in some extra miles today ahead of the possible storm.

This week was also another big success. Successes can look very differently, by the way. Sometimes they are high volume weeks with multiple great workouts like last week. Sometimes they are moving things around and getting in what you can due to weather or illness or life, like this week. Sometimes success is beating a runner you don’t normally beat, like today.

I just want you to know that I know you can beat Juan. And you will. Yes, Juan is a physical person. He is also a symbol, a representation of your larger goals (sub 2:40 for example). Don’t be afraid of Juan. Don’t be afraid of your goals. Don’t keep a distance all the time. You are worthy of your big goals. So go get them - in your workouts, in your easy runs, at the next race. You can do it.

Happy Running.

I could not agree more and have the EXACT same criticism of my race today. In my heart, I know that, if I had gotten out of my comfort zone, I could have beaten Juan. No doubt. I just did not push beyond my comfort zone. THANK YOU so much for providing, and confirming, this criticism. You are a good coach.

Will stalk Juan next time out, and thanks again for the excellent coaching. And you are also right that I am “afraid” of my goals...and afraid of my ability, too.

All the best to you...

outsiderunner wrote:

I could not agree more and have the EXACT same criticism of my race today. In my heart, I know that, if I had gotten out of my comfort zone, I could have beaten Juan. No doubt. I just did not push beyond my comfort zone. THANK YOU so much for providing, and confirming, this criticism. You are a good coach.

Will stalk Juan next time out, and thanks again for the excellent coaching. And you are also right that I am “afraid” of my goals...and afraid of my ability, too.

All the best to you...

Its not a matter of getting out of your comfort zone. You are just not ready for the paces as your coach believes.

Good race OR. Something to think about..it’s quite possible that Matt’s race was done in by the fact that he tried to stick with Juan from the gun. Juan is beatable, and I like that Stone is having you think beyond your preconceived limitations, but keep in mind that the rabbit can pull you down with him. Forgive me Stone for stepping on your toes here as the coach (although I assume that’s fine since you’re coaching him on a forum instead of privately) but as much as I don’t like to see runners allowing the watch to dictate their efforts I also don’t like to see them give over the controls to the competition. Run a smart race, listen to your body, and above all trust your racing instincts.

outsiderunner wrote:

I could not agree more and have the EXACT same criticism of my race today. In my heart, I know that, if I had gotten out of my comfort zone, I could have beaten Juan. No doubt. I just did not push beyond my comfort zone.

too hot - Although your intentions are good and I know you want to see OR succeed, I am going to politely disagree with you here.

Actually sometimes a race is just that. A race against the competition. Completely dictated by those against whom you are competing. OR can sit back and do what he has always done, and feel good for most of the race with a feeling of still having some in the tank. Or he can get out of his comfort zone, even if that means hurting and slowing down, to give himself a shot at beating this guy who habitually beats him by :10 or less.

We aren’t talking the NCAA championships, where every place counts. And this isn’t even his preferred race distance. It’s an opportunity to try something different, learn something new, and then analyze the lesson. This wouldn’t be the plan for every race. It’s the plan for the next race.

And you are right. I am his coach. And it’s funny how the coach and athlete already start thinking the same and planning the same and have the same vision in sight. I want OR to achieve HIS goals. And I know he wants to take down Juan. I also know that he can and eventually will.

Let me restate my point in simpler terms. If Juan goes out at 4:50 pace and OR goes with him is that smart? I think you have to provide a bit more leeway and say something like okay...let’s get out of our comfort zone but don’t go in over your head just because your rival does.

Let me restate my point in simpler terms.

Juan has defeated OR by approximately :10 or less in every race. Also, Juan is not winning these races, so we can assume he is racing hard. Juan and OR are therefore very close in 5k to 5 mile race fitness based on their results. OR acknowledges that. Therefore, Juan cannot go out in 4:50. He could not race a mile that fast, or if he could, that would be an all out effort for him.

OR likes to go out slower and make up ground, that is his comfort zone. He also finishes with some left in the tank. He acknowledges that. Juan likes to go out at or around the pace he ends up averaging. OR can also confirm that for us. Finally, OR acknowledges that he can defeat him.

So let him. So what if Juan goes hard from the gun? OR has never done that. Let him. Encourage him to experiment, especially when there is GREAT CAUSE that the athlete also believes him. Let OR discover what he is made of, rather than cautioning him to hold back and stick to what’s safe. Safe is for the marathon. Safe is for workouts and easy runs. Safe is not for the local 5k.

I’m going to politely disagree with you Stone. Yes, in a marathon you have to be more patient but you also have to approach the 5K with some respect. Between two evenly matched competitors like Juan and OR, even 10 seconds too fast in the first mile can make a difference. Juan may USUALLY end up averaging what he he goes out in but a RACER can never assume he knows what his competitors will do on any given day. Ultimately you have to rely on your own race plan and know (effort-wise) what you are capable of sustaining. Granted, if the idea is to have OR blow up a few times to find that threshold then that makes sense but the possibility of blowing up (with the stated purpose) needs to be included in the race plan.

too hot 3 wrote:

Ultimately you have to rely on your own race plan.

OR and I have a race plan, about which we are in agreement. We will stick with it.