ask any certified economist of it's safe to go shopping and they will say YES!
ask any certified economist of it's safe to go shopping and they will say YES!
joedirty wrote:
Precious Roy wrote:
My brother in law is an MD in New York. He is an academic and did not have to be on the front lines. He thinks that the general consensus is to begin allowing the health system to get back up and running as long as there are adequate PPEs and tests. This is more a matter of balancing the necessity with the burden. People with bulging discs need their steroid shots. People are waiting on cancer surgeries. And so on. As long as the health care providers and patients can be tested, there is little risk.
For the rest of the economy, it is way too early for most states to be loosening any further restrictions. Most states have plateaued with only a few seeing a consistent decline. All the sacrifices that went into the lockdowns could be very quickly wiped out if states are not able to effectively test and trace and allow new outbreaks to emerge. The end of May will end up looking a lot like the end of March with exponential spread in many places. A few more weeks to really get the virus under control is way better than being back to square one in a few weeks with another possibly even longer lockdown in store.
Is this the same brother in law or the WHO that was advising you that patients would not get immunity to this? Because South Korea basically refuted that idea and acknowledged those were false positives:
http://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20200429000724That was the basis for your argument that people wouldn't gain immunity long term (in spite of evidence from prior SARS and MERS outbreaks to the contrary).
And Fauci lauded Gilead's remdisivir as a treatment:
https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-remdisivir-study-shows-drug-182650101.htmlVaccine by January
If you look at the study, 8% died vs 11% placebo, and I bet that was fudged.
This is the **** I hate, they will probably make billions, but it's completely worthless just spinning the stats to make some cash.
Also
https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/health/remdisivir-shows-no-benefits-on-covid-19-patients-in-first-clinical-trial-70790Actually, the Hippocratic oath is to first do no harm. Therefore, a doctor with a conscience would never instruct a completely healthy person to stay indoor without human contact. Doctors know that would be causing harm to a healthy patient.
Dr Steven, the Psychiatrist?
Human Torch wrote:
When did we elect doctors as dictators? In what sense are doctors qualified to make decisions beyond the scope of medical care? I would assume that if you took the Hippocratic oath to its logical conclusion, doctors would advise people to shelter in place until there were no new cases. Doctors are in no position to gauge the impact on the economy, personal liberties and future consequences of a prolonged economic shutdown or a world operating indefinitely using social distancing norms. Doctors-- as do many of the public, place too great a premium on saving every life unencumbered by practicality.
There is a fundamental tension between what we can afford as a society and prolonging human life as long as possible. If we made doctors the gatekeepers of these decisions we would (and may yet) bankrupt ourselves trying to extend human life at great expense beyond the natural life cycle. We can spend more in the last few years of people's lives trying to keep them alive than people make over their entire lifespan. The point is, doctors aren't the people to make these policy decisions, these decisions should be made. These decisions should be made with the knowledge from doctors as to the medical risks, but also from economists, and philosophers and ethicists.
+10000. This is it in a nutshell.
Human Torch wrote:
When did we elect doctors as dictators? In what sense are doctors qualified to make decisions beyond the scope of medical care? I would assume that if you took the Hippocratic oath to its logical conclusion, doctors would advise people to shelter in place until there were no new cases. Doctors are in no position to gauge the impact on the economy, personal liberties and future consequences of a prolonged economic shutdown or a world operating indefinitely using social distancing norms. Doctors-- as do many of the public, place too great a premium on saving every life unencumbered by practicality.
There is a fundamental tension between what we can afford as a society and prolonging human life as long as possible. If we made doctors the gatekeepers of these decisions we would (and may yet) bankrupt ourselves trying to extend human life at great expense beyond the natural life cycle. We can spend more in the last few years of people's lives trying to keep them alive than people make over their entire lifespan. The point is, doctors aren't the people to make these policy decisions, these decisions should be made. These decisions should be made with the knowledge from doctors as to the medical risks, but also from economists, and philosophers and ethicists.
These are the words I would have written had I not come across your post first. Everyone should stick to their area of specialty, discuss alternatives, and make a joint decision. Otherwise, the responses are predictable:
MD - virus issue is way overblown, open up the economy
Goldman Sachs folks - open up the economy
Epidemiologist - Close everything until we flatten the curve
Working mom (now at home with kids) - open up the economy
Person who lost their job - open up the economy
Person working from home - listen to scientists
Politician - do whatever necessary to get reelected
PhD Economics - open up the economy
General public believing that science is the answer to every question - do whatever "science" "tells" us
Sitting president in election year - open up the economy
etc...
Well....... wrote:If you look at the study, 8% died vs 11% placebo, and I bet that was fudged.
I believe the study said 8% died on Remidisvar compared to 11.8% on the placebo.
That is a 32% reduction in mortality. That is HUGE if it can be confirmed in further and bigger studies.
Two of my closest friends are doctors, one an er doc. They both think we should open things up now with certain restrictions.
We are trying to plan a guys trip for the summer and they are more concerned with finding somewhere where the bars will be open then they are about catching covid.
open the economy wrote:
Elderly and those with underlying concerns, continue to hibernate. Everybody else, get back to work.
Go f****** and hibernate yourself you stupid retard. MDs are some of the absolute worst human beings.
Doctor of everything wrote:
Actually, the Hippocratic oath is to first do no harm. Therefore, a doctor with a conscience would never instruct a completely healthy person to stay indoor without human contact. Doctors know that would be causing harm to a healthy patient.
There's no such thing as a healthy patient.
Healthy people are not patients, and they don't go to doctors.
truth_hurts wrote:
The ones not earning money from elective procedures probably would try to open it, though.
My father received a call a from his hospital's scheduling department for an upcoming upper GI procedure several hours before the governor in his state announced the opening up of elective procedures. So elective scheduling department knew before the official announcement and wasted no time reopening the elective procedure business. I am sure most of the non-emergency room and non-ICU medical professionals are welcoming the opening up of their business so they can resume making a living. They may still be some in hot spots that may not want to resume elective procedures yet and their governors may not be allowing them yet anyway. There has been only 1 death in my father's county attributed to COVID and fewer than 30 confirmed cases.
Precious Roy wrote:
My brother in law is an MD in New York. He is an academic and did not have to be on the front lines. He thinks that the general consensus is to begin allowing the health system to get back up and running as long as there are adequate PPEs and tests. This is more a matter of balancing the necessity with the burden. People with bulging discs need their steroid shots. People are waiting on cancer surgeries. And so on. As long as the health care providers and patients can be tested, there is little risk.
For the rest of the economy, it is way too early for most states to be loosening any further restrictions. Most states have plateaued with only a few seeing a consistent decline. All the sacrifices that went into the lockdowns could be very quickly wiped out if states are not able to effectively test and trace and allow new outbreaks to emerge. The end of May will end up looking a lot like the end of March with exponential spread in many places. A few more weeks to really get the virus under control is way better than being back to square one in a few weeks with another possibly even longer lockdown in store.
I heard the story earlier today. It will be available later.
"Host Robin Young talks to New York Times veteran science writer Donald G. McNeil Jr. about drug advances, viral spread, issues of immunity and whether there's science behind states' reopening."
Donald McNeil points out how the USA is opening up while there are new cases occurring while China locked down until they were no new cases. It points out a number of things the USA is doing different than other countries and predicts multiple waves of outbreaks. My personal opinion is the USA general public is not disciplined enough to prevent transmission during opening up. There are not enough tests of various types yet to monitor for outbreaks. They do not have contact tracing in place yet and never will be able to do it as successfully as China or South Korea due to a number of reasons such as they won't hire enough tracers and people will not use phone apps or give up freedoms to make it easier.
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/04/30/veteran-science-writer-pandemicFacts Matter? wrote:
Facts Matter? wrote:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/nyc-coronavirus-front-line-doctor-calls-for-end-to-lockdown“The way this transpired tells me the ebb and flow had more to do with the natural course of the outbreak than it did with the lockdown,” he emphasized."
Hey FM - how does this genius doctor know anything about the natural ebb and flow of SARS-CoV-2 when it is a novel coronavirus? Literally no one knows it's seasonal epidemiology at this point.
I have no doubt most doctors would recommend erring on the side of caution with regard to opening the economy back up. Given their background, I would not expect otherwise. It's a decision I think most people would respect, even if they don't agree.
But I really worry the economy is not going to be able to bounce back from this. To be honest, I'm no more an economist than a doctor, but it seems apparent the US economy has been trending in the wrong direction for decades.
The nation debt is $24 Trillion and rising rapidly. It's been very much a bipartisan effort to get to this point. How much will this COVID-19 fiasco add to the debt? Does anyone know? Of course, we had a massive debt after WWII as well. But there was a huge manufacturing base then, most of which has packed up and left for China.
uhhm wrote:
Even epidemiologists... they might be able to model spread of a virus, but they certainly can’t model the fallout from the totally ridiculous response, which will be far worse.
Epidemiologists told us we needed field hospitals and tons of ventilators. Now all the hospitals (which were pretty much not used) are being torn down and the ventilators (that we built for $50,000 a piece) we are giving away. Tell us again why we should trust epidemiologists with economic decisions? What's a couple of billion dollars if it is just printed money with no backing?
https://apnews.com/e593ba57f37206b495521503d7e5e4c5https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/04/28/coronavirus-hospitals-avoid-ventilator-shortage-curve-new-york-flattens/3036008001/The Panic of 2020 wrote:
I have no doubt most doctors would recommend erring on the side of caution with regard to opening the economy back up. Given their background, I would not expect otherwise. It's a decision I think most people would respect, even if they don't agree.
Viruses are everywhere. You don't just get rid of them by locking people up in their cages. This particular virus has even gotten into prisons, which shows how stupid the basis of this whole fascist lockdown fiasco really is.
The best way to let people build up their immunities to viruses, is to let them build up their immunity to the viruses, Period.
Not to lock them up in cages where their immunities keep getting weaker and weaker.
Syndicate wrote:
I heard most of the licensed doctors are in on this. At least the ones in the hospitals running interference for Big Vent are. Follow the $$$$$ (greenback).
I heard that most letruns posters are utter morons.
dunes runner wrote:
News Flash:
Fascist Fauci is NOT a scientist.
He's a big pharma vaccination lobbyist.
Big pharma makes billions from their toxic vaccinations and their afteraffects.
In fact, Dr. Fauci is a scientist. With a background in Immunology. He was one of the key researcher during the HIV/AIDS epidemic.
But, hey, lets avoid facts and spread flat our lies instead.
dunes runner wrote:
open the economy wrote:
Elderly and those with underlying concerns, continue to hibernate. Everybody else, get back to work.
Go f****** and hibernate yourself you stupid retard. MDs are some of the absolute worst human beings.
blabedeblablabla
Got issues much? Moran.