Trans woman & OTQer Megan Youngren's amazing marathon progression.

Avocado's Number. I hope you're right and xx keep on winning. But the argument that has to be made to justify allowing trans women to compete in womens sports is essentially that Megan Youngren without any transitional treatments, therapies or surgeries would have been able to make or nearly make the mens qualifying standard with a similar amount of training time and effort as she has done to reach the female standard.

You really don't see the difference? You progressed from a very slow time for a man to a slow time. Megan progressed from a very slow time for a "woman" to OTQ in one year.

How many guys progress from let's say a 3:30 to a 2:19 in one year?

You don't admire her less, even though you know now that she is a man? So a 2:45 is equally impressive for a man than for a woman?

Female standard is much easier to attain, the equivalent male standard is 2:26 or 2:27.

Dougie Burke is a special kind of kid.

SuperWoman wrote:

Avocado's Number. I hope you're right and xx keep on winning. But the argument that has to be made to justify allowing trans women to compete in womens sports is essentially that Megan Youngren without any transitional treatments, therapies or surgeries would have been able to make or nearly make the mens qualifying standard with a similar amount of training time and effort as she has done to reach the female standard.

I don't believe that argument needs to be made at all. The integrity of the sport is not at risk because a bunch of 2:20 male marathoners are going to choose to transition to females in order to increase their chances of running in an Olympic trials race. And even if that does happen, so what? The women's long-distance committee has long chosen to set their Olympic trials qualifying standards in the marathon to be more "inclusive" than those set for the men's race. If they continue with standards that allow over 500 women to qualify, they should expect a wider range of qualifiers, perhaps including one or two who were once less than speedy males. And if they are so adamant about excluding trans women who wouldn't have been able to make the men's qualifying standard as men, they are free to tighten their own qualifying standard. (In fact, I think they should do that anyway.)

As I indicated before, none of this is likely to shake up the athletics world for very long, because the athletics world is not going to allow xx females to get squeezed out of sport to accommodate asserted beliefs about acceptance and inclusivity regarding trans women.

Perhaps it won't shake things up at the top level. Much. But it is creating controversy on the amateur level. Megan is beating actual women who have been women their whole lives. Should the women who placed behind Megan look up to her as a female athletic role model? Thinking to themselves "Maybe some day if I train hard and dodge injuries I can be as fast as her?" Also in high school athletics and college recruitment it is already an issue. Lookup what's going on in Connecticut right now with the two male sprinters who are racing in women's races. It seems like a simple solution would be to allow anyone who wants to race in mens races to do so. But to disallow those born biologically as men to compete in women's races.

SuperWoman wrote:

Perhaps it won't shake things up at the top level. Much. But it is creating controversy on the amateur level. Megan is beating actual women who have been women their whole lives. Should the women who placed behind Megan look up to her as a female athletic role model? Thinking to themselves "Maybe some day if I train hard and dodge injuries I can be as fast as her?" Also in high school athletics and college recruitment it is already an issue. Lookup what's going on in Connecticut right now with the two male sprinters who are racing in women's races. It seems like a simple solution would be to allow anyone who wants to race in mens races to do so. But to disallow those born biologically as men to compete in women's races.

College recruitment is not yet an issue. The two transgender athletes in Connecticut are not in compliance with NCAA rules. They would need to sit out a year for hormone treatments and then take another year to post some new PRs before they could be considered for recruitment.

Avocado's Number wrote:

I don't believe that argument needs to be made at all. The integrity of the sport is not at risk because a bunch of 2:20 male marathoners are going to choose to transition to females in order to increase their chances of running in an Olympic trials race. And even if that does happen, so what?

So what!? What about the local races? Many local marathons have cash prizes. The Mayors Marathon in Anchorage, AK has a $1000 prize for first, $500 for 2nd, and most years could be won with a 2:45. Should the woman in 2nd just graciously accept her 2nd place and the $500 it cost her? Can it positively be proven that running as a man you're whole life and then transitioning to a woman not have performance benefits? Because if it can't then that effects the integrity of the sport. Maybe not at the tippy top super elite olympic level. But it does from there down to the very base. Much like doping for years and then stopping doesn't overnight revert a runner to their pre doping fitness and speed being a man and competing as one for your whole life has irreversible physical benefits.

Also what do you think will happen when a race opts to not pay out a 1st place cash prize to a trans woman? It's going to open them up to litigation for discrimination and the media will be all over that dumpster fire. Or maybe a trans woman will sue a college for choosing an actual xx girl over them despite having a significantly faster times. Or actual xx girls being passed up for college scholarships because a school chooses a trans girl?

Finally comparing Megan to Patti Dillion and Bill Rodgers, the worlds best marathoners of their time, sort of highlights how extraordinary Megans progression has been. Yes it's possible you've shown that. But it's far from normal.

You can contact usada to have them test this "person" out of competition before the race

SDSU Aztec wrote:

College recruitment is not yet an issue. The two transgender athletes in Connecticut are not in compliance with NCAA rules. They would need to sit out a year for hormone treatments and then take another year to post some new PRs before they could be considered for recruitment.

That's good to know. I'm sure that it makes for some frustrating races to watch and probably isn't helping the motivation of the girls competing. Although, I heard that a girl beat both of those guys recently, so maybe it will inadvertently bring the level of competition up there.

San Diego Hobby Jogger wrote:

You can contact usada to have them test this "person" out of competition before the race

I think even if they are within compliance they would still have an advantage.

SuperWoman wrote:

Avocado's Number wrote:

I don't believe that argument needs to be made at all. The integrity of the sport is not at risk because a bunch of 2:20 male marathoners are going to choose to transition to females in order to increase their chances of running in an Olympic trials race. And even if that does happen, so what?

So what!? What about the local races? Many local marathons have cash prizes. The Mayors Marathon in Anchorage, AK has a $1000 prize for first, $500 for 2nd, and most years could be won with a 2:45.

Yeah, I can imagine a bunch of 2:20 male marathoners choosing to spend the next several years of their lives transitioning to females so they can run a 2:45 marathon and win $1000 at a no-name race in Alaska. Maybe we need some federal legislation to prevent such shenanigans.

Fake news. Jonathan Eastwood stole a scholarship from a girl.

Those guys lost because they suddenly started to sandbag, as there is now a lawsuit going on. It's a common tactic for these cheaters, Semenya, Eastwood... they all slowed way down when the heat was turned on.

You don't need to be a 2:20 male marathoner. "Megan" is running faster than 4 hour marathoner Mark Youngren did, while "she" is supposedly transitioning.

I did some research.

It appears that Mark lied to Chris Chavez:

"Youngren, 28, started taking hormone medication in 2011 and came out as transgender in 2012. In a recent interview with Sports Illustrated‘s Chris Chavez, she detailed her journey in running to get to this point as an Olympic Trials qualifier."

However, court document proof that he only changed his name in 2018:

12/10/2018 In the Matter of: Youngren, Mark Clayton New Name: Youngren, Megan Clay

dokumen.tips/documents/adult-change-of-name-cases-granted-alaska-adult-change-of-name-cases-granted.html

Avocado's Number wrote:

[quote]SuperWoman wrote:

[quote]Avocado's Number wrote:

Yeah, I can imagine a bunch of 2:20 male marathoners choosing to spend the next several years of their lives transitioning to females so they can run a 2:45 marathon and win $1000 at a no-name race in Alaska. Maybe we need some federal legislation to prevent such shenanigans.

It doesn’t take a lot of imagination. Megan lives in Soldotna, AK. The race is a short drive away. I know this doesn’t affect such an amazing and prestigious runner such as yourself. The irrelevant times and races of mere hobby jogger women running 2:45s is irrelevant to someone with such grace, speed and sports knowledge as yourself. Megan already won prizes in women’s races with real people running in them. No imagination needed. They aren’t as fast as you but it doesn’t make them irrelevant. It doesn’t take a bunch of 2:20 male marathoners spending years of their lives transitioning to ruin these races for women’s. It just take one otherwise unremarkable guy who probably couldn’t run a 2:35.

sleuth3 wrote:

I did some research.

It appears that Mark lied to Chris Chavez:

"Youngren, 28, started taking hormone medication in 2011 and came out as transgender in 2012. In a recent interview with Sports Illustrated‘s Chris Chavez, she detailed her journey in running to get to this point as an Olympic Trials qualifier."

However, court document proof that he only changed his name in 2018:

12/10/2018 In the Matter of: Youngren, Mark Clayton New Name: Youngren, Megan Clay

I don't see a lie here.

I was listening to the 1609 podcast today during my long run. Turns out they interviewed this 'Megan'.

A podcast of 2 hours 50. They discussed 'her' entire life, running history... but they didn't even mention that 'she' was trans until 2 hours 30. But it was very clear of course, it seems like she sometimes forgot to alter her voice.

After that point, a lot of complaining and sighing about USATF, the 'trolls'... Apparently she still isn't sure if she can participate. She didn't understand why there was any controversy at all. She also admitted to sandbagging previous races.

The hosts were pretty cowardly. No pushback at all, just going along with the madness. Especially the female host should have explained the issues with allowing biological men to potentially grab a spot reserved for women to go to the Olympics.

stitcher.com/podcast/the-1609-podcast/e/67315861

I'm 50+. I'm glad I grew up when I did. This BS that is becoming commonplace is, well, BS.

Softer. That's all I can say about the future. Softer.

David S wrote:

sleuth3 wrote:

I did some research.

It appears that Mark lied to Chris Chavez:

"Youngren, 28, started taking hormone medication in 2011 and came out as transgender in 2012. In a recent interview with Sports Illustrated‘s Chris Chavez, she detailed her journey in running to get to this point as an Olympic Trials qualifier."

However, court document proof that he only changed his name in 2018:

12/10/2018 In the Matter of: Youngren, Mark Clayton New Name: Youngren, Megan Clay

I don't see a lie here.

So we are supposed to believe that Megan/Mark started suppressing her testosterone in 2011, but only bothered to change her name in 2018?

And while she was allegedly transitioning for all these years, she became faster and faster?