7th and 8th graders on Varsity XC Squads

I coach in New York. On the far western side of the state. I don't know of a single school that does not allow middle school kids to run at the varsity level. if they are good enough to run, they should be able to run.

Do the math. How many NXN girls team champions were from schools where middle schoolers were allowed to run on the team? I believe it is over 90% or close to it.

Dubious math as FM and Toga have won like (rough guess) 13 of the Championships at NXN since 2004. Not sure the same two schools winning is really a good sample size as some of the California schools are literally double the size FM and Toga.

Math + Experience wrote:

Do the math. How many NXN girls team champions were from schools where middle schoolers were allowed to run on the team? I believe it is over 90% or close to it.

so let everybody else change to allow them to run. no problem.

NYOutlier wrote:

Dubious math as FM and Toga have won like (rough guess) 13 of the Championships at NXN since 2004. Not sure the same two schools winning is really a good sample size as some of the California schools are literally double the size FM and Toga.

right. it is absolutely impossible to make everything "FAIR" with the disparity in school sizes that is seen throughout the sport.

I coach at a school with class sizes of 60!

NYOutlier wrote:

Dubious math as FM and Toga have won like (rough guess) 13 of the Championships at NXN since 2004. Not sure the same two schools winning is really a good sample size as some of the California schools are literally double the size FM and Toga.

That should be an even better indicator of how huge an advantage it is. Even schools with 2-3x the population can't match up with teams using and abusing middle schoolers in order to achieve short term success.

high school xc coach wrote:

NYOutlier wrote:

Dubious math as FM and Toga have won like (rough guess) 13 of the Championships at NXN since 2004. Not sure the same two schools winning is really a good sample size as some of the California schools are literally double the size FM and Toga.

right. it is absolutely impossible to make everything "FAIR" with the disparity in school sizes that is seen throughout the sport.

I coach at a school with class sizes of 60!

Y'all more concerned with winning than doing what is best for the long term health of your students.

Math + Experience wrote:

high school xc coach wrote:

right. it is absolutely impossible to make everything "FAIR" with the disparity in school sizes that is seen throughout the sport.

I coach at a school with class sizes of 60!

Y'all more concerned with winning than doing what is best for the long term health of your students.

these are rules that were put in place a long time ago that have nothing to do with WINNING, and certainly nothing to do with winning in xc. the rules were put in place to give athletes a chance to compete when they are good enough to compete.

The long term health stuff is just strawman. THere are more girls who get a wonderful life experience being able to compete at that age than there are girls who are hurt by it.

Show me a coach that’s not interested in winning meets... Good coaches should be able to balance both: winning and the health of their athletes. Now, it is probably an entire MB thread all it’s own if we were to discuss the long term health of MS kids running varsity level miles... so I will no go any further.

high school xc coach wrote:

Math + Experience wrote:

Y'all more concerned with winning than doing what is best for the long term health of your students.

these are rules that were put in place a long time ago that have nothing to do with WINNING, and certainly nothing to do with winning in xc. the rules were put in place to give athletes a chance to compete when they are good enough to compete.

The long term health stuff is just strawman. THere are more girls who get a wonderful life experience being able to compete at that age than there are girls who are hurt by it.

In fact the rules were not put in place so that athletes could compete just be they are good enough to. It was put in place because teams from very small rural schools couldn't field a full scoring squad.

The "wonderful life experience" as a 7th and 8th grader is completely negated when these girls, who identify their entire existence as being a runner, can't even make the varsity squad anymore as a senior and feel like total losers.

NYOutlier wrote:

Show me a coach that’s not interested in winning meets... Good coaches should be able to balance both: winning and the health of their athletes. Now, it is probably an entire MB thread all it’s own if we were to discuss the long term health of MS kids running varsity level miles... so I will no go any further.

"Should" is the key word. But is a coach really concerned with the health of an athlete when they are rushing them to the hospital late at night in order to get an IV (illegal at the top levels of the sport mind you) so they can compete the next morning at NXN?

Having middle schoolers on Saratoga’s varsity team increased competition to make the top 7 on the team, which may have pushed the older girls to step up more if they wanted to make the NXN team lineup, which is why those freshman and sophomores became as good as they became.

Another thing with the depth team like that, is that if someone has an off day, someone else will step up.