Clayton Murphy RARELY runs slower than 6:00 pace

LM wrote:

It's not the Kenyans, it's every elite aerobic athlete in every sport. Runners. Rowers. Cyclists. Nordic Athletes. Swimmers. Every one of them has intensity distributions with 85%-95% of their training below VT1, and 5-15% above VT2.

It's been validated extensively that elite training scales down to recreational athletes doing lower volume.

I've been coaching for a while, and I have NEVER had an athlete who hasn't improved when I've gotten then to go slower on their training on non quality days. However.....

I don't coach athletes running 400/800. It might be different there with the significantly larger anaerobic contribution. The studies and results with athletes racing aerobic distances (for running 1500 and up) are really clear here.

Nobody here is suggesting that "easy days" be faster than VT1. The question is how MUCH slower should they be.

And for what it's worth, I've seen many athletes improve by increasing speed on "easy days." My general approach is to run "easy days" at a pretty decent clip early in a training cycle, while having "quality days" that aren't especially taxing (maybe 60% of the workout volume that athletes will approach later on in the cycle). As competition gets closer, and workouts get harder, then easy days get easier.

Kipchoge May have a higher threshold but that’s only one factor theirs many other factors. First of all murphy runs maybe half or almost half the weekly mileage as Kipchoge. Over shorter distances I’m certain Murphy’s stride mechanics are more efficient than Kipchoge thus why he’s an 800 runner. Perceived effort is a lot different when you’re an 800m runner vs a marathoner. Murphy most likely “feels” the same way at 6:00 pace that Kipchoge “feels” at 6:30. But if murphy were to double the distance of his run, he certainly wouldn’t feel the same during that second half of his run and would adjust his pace. This perceived

Effort changes depending on what cycle of training you’re in. Less intense cycle, it’s easier to go a lil faster for easy days. Also, if murphy is coming down from altitude training It will certainly feel easier than usual.

Okay, yea I'm with you here. If you do an approach like you describe that can work well, essentially increasing the polarization as you move through the training cycle, and having some days near VT1 isn't a bad thing, especially if you're at lower volumes of intensity.

With regards to Murphy though, I would suspect with 65 or so half ability that 6:00 is pretty close to, or quite possibly over, VT1. That's 83% of threshold in a guy that's focused on speed, he is going to have a lower VT1 relative to threshold than a dedicated 10k or marathon guy, and even in many of them VT1 tends to sit around 80% or so of threshold.

Murphy being more efficient is certainly part of it. It's also that Murphy outright can put down more power, and perhaps most importantly that Murphy has a massive anaerobic cap, which is a prerequisite for any runner at 400 or 800.

I would also agree with you that given their speed and stride difference, 6:00 pace will feel like much more of a jog for Murphy than it would for Kipchoge. Where I'm inclined to differ is where you mention that if Murphy double his run it wouldn't feel the same during the second half.

I would argue that for the first two to three minutes of running it will feel easier, by quite a bit, to run 6:00 pace than for Kipchoge, but after that time, you're pretty settled into the aerobic effort, and it's the percentage of your maximum aerobic output and lactate levels that influence how hard/easy the run feels. If you test Kipchoge and Murphy at five minutes into a run at 6:00 pace, it's almost a guarantee Kipchoge will be at lower lactate levels, lower percentage of HRmax, lower percentage of maximal aerobic power, etc. This will feel easier to Kipchoge than to Murphy.

LM wrote:

With regards to Murphy though, I would suspect with 65 or so half ability that 6:00 is pretty close to, or quite possibly over, VT1. That's 83% of threshold in a guy that's focused on speed, he is going to have a lower VT1 relative to threshold than a dedicated 10k or marathon guy, and even in many of them VT1 tends to sit around 80% or so of threshold.

Huh? Certainly his VT1 is going to be relatively lower than someone with the same Vo2max who runs long distance, but there is no way that 6:00 is remotely close. Someone who runs a 65 minute half has a VT1 under 5:20 per mile pace. I'm a middle aged road racer, and my VT1 is faster than 6:00, at least when I'm in shape.

Yes. This post so accurately summarizes my thoughts on the Letsrun easy day pacing threads. Not that I was or am a great runner, but I can relate a bit.

Middle distance runners don’t need to run so slow, it may actually change their stride and cause issues.

Here’s my experience:

In college I ran: 48.6 split in 4x400, 1:49 800m, and 4:06 mile. I had a VERY hard time running 15:21 (pb) in the 5,000m and have not yet run under 1:12 in the half marathon or under 2:30 in the marathon.

I usually max out mileage around 50-60 mpw, but stay around 45-55 mpw. Anything more generally means injuries. Getting to 2:32 in the marathon was A LOT of work. Probably as much effort and focus as when I was able to run 1:49. But way less fun.

I ran all of my miles around 6-6:25 pace in college. Nowadays my body just defaults to 6:55-7:10 pace, unless I did a huge workout the day before then it’s mor elike 7:50

Slower feels like it’s pounding my hip sockets or something.

FT Fibers that can take on slow properties.

800 dude wrote:

LM wrote:

With regards to Murphy though, I would suspect with 65 or so half ability that 6:00 is pretty close to, or quite possibly over, VT1. That's 83% of threshold in a guy that's focused on speed, he is going to have a lower VT1 relative to threshold than a dedicated 10k or marathon guy, and even in many of them VT1 tends to sit around 80% or so of threshold.

Huh? Certainly his VT1 is going to be relatively lower than someone with the same Vo2max who runs long distance, but there is no way that 6:00 is remotely close. Someone who runs a 65 minute half has a VT1 under 5:20 per mile pace. I'm a middle aged road racer, and my VT1 is faster than 6:00, at least when I'm in shape.

Let's make sure we are talking same terms. We might not be. For VT1 I'm referring to the so called "Aerobic Threshold". VT2 is the so called "Anerobic Threshold" that most of us know as threshold/tempo/HMP/etc.

VT1 lies below around 2mmol lactate, VT2 tends to occur around 4mmol lactate. As you said 5:20 pace, that makes me think you're thinking AneT, and I'm thinking AeT.

For a visual clarification:

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Pulling from here, we can see a pretty clear difference between AeT and AneT:

In this elite runners, AneT/VT2 is occuring around 20 kph (4:50 pace), but VT1 around 15kph, which is like 6:30 pace. I would be really surprised if Murphy is below VT1 running 6:00 pace.

Again, I can't say it's bad for Murphy is he is doing some running between VT1 and VT2 given that he focus on 800, which isn't something I understand the training for quite as well. For most endurance athletes going harder than AeT has generally been shown to be less effective. We rarely see elites training between say 5:00 pace and 6:00 pace. It's usually intervals at MP or faster, or nice easy running. I think the only 5000m and up runner I've heard of who does close to that is when it was alleged Mo and Galen were training often at 5:45-6:00 pace.

Yep, read Yuriy Borzakovskiy's training, and the comments of his coach.

For a guy who’s run 3:36 and does lower mileage that sounds about right. That’s like a 1:30 per mile slower than his projected 5k ability. 1:30-2:00 is where most runners should be unless their legs are trashed from a race.

El G ran even faster on daily runs

markeroon wrote:

El G ran even faster on daily runs

Definitely. El G.m was a definite middle distance guy though, and on who knows what kind of doping regimen. Lagat another example in that camp of 1500 guys with good speed. Wont find endurance 1500m capable guys like Farah or Jakob you wont find doing that.

Most likely there is an advantage with speed mechanics or anaerobic cap that the more anaerobic and speed based middle distance guys benefit from that isnt relevant for more aerobic events.

Interestingly, it also doesnt seem to be relevant to other aerobic sports, as there dont seem to be El Gs or Lagats in other endurance sports. Cyclists doing pursuit (4' event) dont train this way. Rowers dont either. Dont think nordic athletes do.

Totally agree. Tended not to run much more than 50 miles a week, but nearly all steady runs were around 6:00-6:20. In winter (no indoor season in England) a lot of base phase was faster than that.

That’s what I am saying..... let’s say murphy runs 5 miles each run and at 6:00 pace and this feels easy... if he were to run 10 miles instead, at 8-9 miles in I’m sure it will not feel as easy as it did during the first 5 miles. If this weren’t the case then surely he could just go for a 30 mile run and it would feel the same. Over the longer distance the perceived effort for Kipchoge vs murphy will sway more in favor of Kipchoge and it would be a huge sway. When i was competing I could come down to sea level and easily run 5:50 pace for a 6 mile run I almost had to force myself to ease up it wasn’t because I was such a fast runner it’s because of the perceived effort. At altitude It wasn’t easy to run 6:30 pace for a recovery run many times I rarely ran under 7. But at sea level the effort felt so much easier and low and behold I was running a minute per mile faster. Now without a watch I wouldn’t have been sure how fast I was running but I felt amazing. It’s because we are adaptive creatures. We do the same thing with weather. If it’s been 90 degrees everyday and a cold front come through and it’s 60 degrees that is going to feel cold. But months later if it’s been 30-40 and you get a 60 degree day it’s gonna feel warm.

backdoor_betty wrote:

Doesn't really matter what his pace is bc Brazier is king now.

+1.

Even tho Boris is the greatest and should never have left our program

How MUCH slower may also depend on the event. To optimize fat oxidation -> just below VT1

This could be thought of as a natural substitute for illegal L-carnitine infusions (increases fat utilization) or drinking months of that sugary stuff NOP was doing.

On the other hand, 800 runners become more economical the faster they go compared to typical longer distance runners. Maybe for 800/1500 runners additional CHO/lactate work is beneficial (faster recovery runs). But maybe with their improved economy at faster paces they are also running at just below VT1 (maximal fat oxidation). One could also argue that shifting the lactate curve to the right (maximal fat oxidation -> recovery runs just below VT1) would benefit them too, even though their event is so short and lactate tolerance/utilization may be more important for them.

LM wrote:

markeroon wrote:

El G ran even faster on daily runs

Definitely. El G.m was a definite middle distance guy though, and on who knows what kind of doping regimen. Lagat another example in that camp of 1500 guys with good speed. Wont find endurance 1500m capable guys like Farah or Jakob you wont find doing that.

And, yet, Salazar cited Farah's increase in easy pace as a significant factor in his improvement. Here's and article from 2011, leading up to the London Games.

From that link:

For his part, Salazar cites three reasons for Farah’s improvement: greater body strength from weights sessions, a better structure to his workouts and, above all, a step-change in the pace of his training runs.

“He used to run all his mileage very slowly,” Salazar said. “His average pace was probably 6min 45sec per mile. Now the average pace that he and Galen run is about 5-45, and that’s 17 to 20 miles a day. They sometimes do 20 miles and go 5-30 pace, and that isn’t a particularly hard day.” Next year, when Farah is stronger, Salazar plans to work hard on his sprint finish to find those extra few centimetres that could be the difference between success and failure at next year’s Olympics.

LM wrote:

In this elite runners, AneT/VT2 is occuring around 20 kph (4:50 pace), but VT1 around 15kph, which is like 6:30 pace.

This is just very, very wrong. I know what VT1/AeT is. It roughly corresponds to marathon pace in well trained runners.

No elite runners have a 1:40 gap between VT1/AeT and VT2/AnT. Even poorly trained high school kids don't have that big of a gap.

There is a HUGE HUGE difference between easy runs and recovery runs. The runs the kenyans are doing at 9min pace are their recovery runs designed to flush the legs, give a hormone boost, and kick start recovery after a hard session. They are then also running easy distance runs at around 90-97% of marathon pace, so could be well under 6m/m. There is more to training than just workouts and not workout days