Is BYU at Risk of Budget Cuts?

runnER/DR wrote:

Snow wrote:

No plates passed because it is all done discretely behind closed doors in the bishop's office. Why would you want to keep poor people out of the temple? Why would you rather see people go hungry than not enlarge the ever increasing pile of cash in the LDS coffers? Every word I wrote is truthful, and if you put away your prejudice and fear of the truth you would admit it.

http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm

You are so blinded by your bias here. It's so obvious. Tithing is absolutely not the most important thing about the LDS faith. At all. Not even close. Everyone meets the same standard to go to the temple, rich or poor. The teachings of tithing are very clearly new testament. The windows mite. Your hate for mormons is so patently obvious you can't even think clearly.

I'm not biased at all, just a reporter of the facts. I certainly don't hate mormons. I suggest that you try to join the LDS without forking over the cash. They won't allow it. Every temple sacrament for LDS is based on paying the cash tithe and thus tithing is the very most important requirement for full participation in the church. You are not getting into that temple if you are too poor to give the church 10% of what little you earn. You can't have your marriage sealed in the temple without first paying the fee. You can't baptise in the temple without first paying the fee. You can't go through the endowment ceremonies without first paying the fee. Tithing is the first and foremost obligation in this faith. The collection of money from the congregation is the cornerstone and foundation.

Brigham likes em young wrote:

blamb61 wrote:

BYU undergrad program ranked number 2 in the nation (2020) by US News and World Report

Most grads would be LDS church members. You don't get those kind of rankings for taking care of money by being a crook!

The serial ponzi scheming crook Henry Marsh learned his lessons well at BYU. That's for sure.

I don't know if he is guilty of impropriety or not, if he was, that is an individual case. Rankings of BYU grads is an aggregate assessment.

blamb61 wrote:

Snow wrote:

They are way more concerned about amassing money than about ministering to souls. Good luck trying to get into a temple without being up to date on your tithes. No matter the circumstances, collecting the cash is the most important thing going on in any LDS meeting. I know this for a fact because I have experienced it first hand for many years.

Nonsense. I've been a Bishop in the LDS church (still am but not in the calling) and finance clerk and that is not how it works. Why would you want to go to the temple if you don't believe in the religion? There is no plates passed at LDS meetings. It is all given discretely. We pay our tithing on-line so no one ever sees us do that in the general congregation. You are not being truthful!

My father in law was unable to see his only daughter get married in the temple because he got behind in paying tithing. He faithfully believed in the church his whole life. He also paid tithing his entire life with the exception of a brief time leading up to our wedding. He was a a small business owner and his company was struggling to be profitable. Rather than laying off his employees, he sold his own assets and invested the proceeds back into the company. There was a period of time when he wasn’t able to pay tithing. He began paying tithing again, but his bishop wouldn’t let him into the temple until he paid back the tithing that he had missed paying. He literally didn’t have the money to do it, and sat outside the temple during our wedding. He has since passed away. I would give anything to go back to my wedding day and do it differently. The day that was supposed to be the happiest day of my wife’s life was one of the saddest. Meanwhile, the Mormon church was sitting on hundreds of billions of dollars. Thank you Mormon, inc.

The Mormon Internet Defense Force is only 3 members strong in this thread, pathetic. I like how they haven't responded to the criticisms of their actual "faith", instead talking about undergraduate accounting rankings and "hey I'm not a mormon but i run defense for them 24/7 it's just like evolutionary to be mormon you guys lol".

I'm sorry your father in law was a crummy accountant. Let's see, 10% of zero is...carry the one...ZERO. So if he was doing his accounting properly and not mixing business and personal accounts, he would have figured out that he had zero income. The bishop asks him if he's a full tithe payer, he says yes, end of story. No wonder his business went broke if he was that bad at numbers.

unpressedented wrote:

I'm sorry your father in law was a crummy accountant. Let's see, 10% of zero is...carry the one...ZERO. So if he was doing his accounting properly and not mixing business and personal accounts, he would have figured out that he had zero income. The bishop asks him if he's a full tithe payer, he says yes, end of story. No wonder his business went broke if he was that bad at numbers.

Thank you for your very compassionate Christlike response. That’s unfortunately the attitude of the Mormon wealth builders. During the rough patch, my father in law took home only enough salary to keep his lights on at home and food on his table. He sold everything he could to keep his employees from being jobless. He paid a full tithe for 99.99% of his life, but was deemed unworthy to attend his daughters wedding.

His character flaw was that he gave too much of his time and wealth to others. He was more compassionate than anyone I have ever been around, but that doesn’t matter in the Mormon Church’s eyes.

The one positive that came from this experience happened when I was a bishop. A couple in my ward wanted to attend their child’s temple wedding. They hadn’t paid tithing in a while and didn't have the money to pay. I wrote them a check from my own account to cover their tithing for the month leading up to the wedding. I told them not to worry about previous months, and they went to the wedding. If Mormon God is mad at me for showing compassion, I’d rather be in Hell.

unpressedented wrote:

I'm sorry your father in law was a crummy accountant. Let's see, 10% of zero is...carry the one...ZERO. So if he was doing his accounting properly and not mixing business and personal accounts, he would have figured out that he had zero income. The bishop asks him if he's a full tithe payer, he says yes, end of story. No wonder his business went broke if he was that bad at numbers.

You clearly need to take some actual accounting classes.

Tithing is from Gross Revenue not Net Profit.

So if Gross Revenue is 100,000

Tithing required would be 10,000.

Doesn't matter if Expenses are 110,000. and father in law had a net loss of 10,000 if tithing is on a Gross basis.

I read the WaPo article and the Deseret News article. Both made interesting points. I've read though some of this forum, but not all, and figured I'd give my $0.02.

I pay tithing. It's pretty clear that you should pay from your "interest" or "increase". I have a corporate job so I pay off my gross income on each check. In side businesses and investments that I'm involved with, I only pay 10% of profits (the profit that shows up on my tax return basically). I think a business owner who pays 10% of revenue is totally misinterpreting the guidelines -- I don't know any member of the church who would disagree with me on that.

I pay tithing essentially because I believe that's what God wants me to do. I don't expect tithing to be used for humanitarian work, which is something the Washington Post article seems to get wrong. Tithing is expected to be used to build "the kingdom" or the church, which is how I've always understood it and how it's always been taught to me. That means that it goes to chapels, temples, maintenance, congregational budgets (for activities), etc. I'm not surprised that there is excess tithing funds, even if it's $100B. I don't think the WaPo article was certain that tithing funds had been used to purchase that big shopping mall -- I don't think that Gordon B. Hinckley lied. It was clear from the article that the "whistleblower" did not have all the information. It was also clear that he and his family had left the church for other reasons, and that he has potential for significant financial gain from his complaint.

I also pay "fast offerings" and contribute to other church funds like humanitarian aid. I try to pay >2% or more of my gross income to these funds (there are no guidelines like tithing). I'm pretty sure that the "humanitarian aid" figure cited in the articles refers to these funds. I'm also pretty sure it excludes some of the aid that goes to members in need (mostly from fast offerings). I'm guessing the church has given more than the figures that have been thrown around. BTW, I also try to be generous in other giving through non-church organizations.

It's so easy in an anonymous forum to pick at little things The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or any other organization) does or doesn't do. Rarely is there sufficient context, and often the points are anecdotal. The good that has come to my life and to my family from belonging to this church far outweighs the bad.

AnotherMormonPerspective wrote:

It's so easy in an anonymous forum to pick at little things The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or any other organization) does or doesn't do. Rarely is there sufficient context, and often the points are anecdotal. The good that has come to my life and to my family from belonging to this church far outweighs the bad.

I'm glad that the church has brought you good things. A $100 billion slush fund is not a "little thing." The only company with more cash reserves is Microsoft. I don't understand why any church member would tolerate such an excess of wealth. What multiple is that over the church's yearly budget?

With that much cash they could have made a big difference in a lot more families' lives, no?

Harambe wrote:

I'm glad that the church has brought you good things. A $100 billion slush fund is not a "little thing." The only company with more cash reserves is Microsoft. I don't understand why any church member would tolerate such an excess of wealth. What multiple is that over the church's yearly budget?

With that much cash they could have made a big difference in a lot more families' lives, no?

Sure, a lot of good could be done with that. Just as good could have been done with the oil that the woman used to anoint Jesus. As I pointed out above, the purpose of tithing funds has never been to give to the poor. There are other funds for that which the church fully employs. The structure and organization of the church alone helps it respond to hundreds of thousands of peoples' needs, in both monetary and non-monetary ways, much of which isn't accounted for.

~$6000 per member does not seem crazy to me. I would not be surprised if there are long-term plans for use of some of that "wealth". It doesn't bother me that the church has a bunch saved up rather than being in debt or somewhere in between.

I haven't dug into it, but I wonder how much of the $100B is cash vs other assets like real estate? I highly doubt it's all liquid investments.

Couple of things after reading some of this thread.

There is pressure to tithe and the leaders want everyone to tithe, even dirt poor members.

One of the questions asked for a temple recommend is if you are a full tithe payer ?

Do you associate with anybody or group that is against the Church ?

You are constantly being pushed to be "temple worthy" which means paying tithing.

Talks from the pulpit are given on the importance of tithing on a regular basis.

The Mormon Church is in dirt poor regions of Africa right now baptizing poor people and telling them their lives will be blessed if they pay tithing.

The Mormon Church is more like a real estate development company with a religious division for tax purposes.

Former Mormon Bishopric Counseler wrote:

Couple of things after reading some of this thread.

There is pressure to tithe and the leaders want everyone to tithe, even dirt poor members.

One of the questions asked for a temple recommend is if you are a full tithe payer ?

Do you associate with anybody or group that is against the Church ?

You are constantly being pushed to be "temple worthy" which means paying tithing.

Talks from the pulpit are given on the importance of tithing on a regular basis.

The Mormon Church is in dirt poor regions of Africa right now baptizing poor people and telling them their lives will be blessed if they pay tithing.

The Mormon Church is more like a real estate development company with a religious division for tax purposes.

The Mormon Church is EXACTLY like a real estate development company with a religious division for tax purposes.

There, fixed it for ya.

The Mormon Church is EXACTLY like a CROOKED real estate development company with a religious division for tax EVASION purposes.

There, fixed it for ya.

Former Mormon Bishopric Counseler wrote:

Couple of things after reading some of this thread.

There is pressure to tithe and the leaders want everyone to tithe, even dirt poor members.

One of the questions asked for a temple recommend is if you are a full tithe payer ?

Do you associate with anybody or group that is against the Church ?

You are constantly being pushed to be "temple worthy" which means paying tithing.

Talks from the pulpit are given on the importance of tithing on a regular basis.

The Mormon Church is in dirt poor regions of Africa right now baptizing poor people and telling them their lives will be blessed if they pay tithing.

The Mormon Church is more like a real estate development company with a religious division for tax purposes.

Temple recommend interviews are voluntary. The member asks for an appointment. From an active member who doesn't hate the Church.

Former Mormon Bishopric Counseler wrote:

Couple of things after reading some of this thread.

There is pressure to tithe and the leaders want everyone to tithe, even dirt poor members.

One of the questions asked for a temple recommend is if you are a full tithe payer ?

Do you associate with anybody or group that is against the Church ?

You are constantly being pushed to be "temple worthy" which means paying tithing.

Talks from the pulpit are given on the importance of tithing on a regular basis.

The Mormon Church is in dirt poor regions of Africa right now baptizing poor people and telling them their lives will be blessed if they pay tithing.

The Mormon Church is more like a real estate development company with a religious division for tax purposes.

It is true that all members are encouraged to pay tithing, even poor ones. I've paid tithing from when I was a poor college student eating Ramen (granted that's different than living in "dirt poor regions of Africa") to now when I make plenty of money.

But you make it sound like that's all the church cares about which is completely false. The church also emphasizes getting the best education possible, giving to the poor, giving service to others, work ethic, becoming self-reliant (not depending on handouts from government), not wasting money/health on alcohol and tobacco, etc. There are multiple things the church teaches that help the poor. From the pulpit, tithing is probably mentioned a couple times a year -- about the same as education, self-reliance, giving to poor (Fast Offering), working hard, and code of health (Word of Wisdom). Service is mentioned almost every week. Temple questions include code of health, being honest, following Jesus Christ, and other things in addition to tithing.

This is what I meant in my earlier post about things being way out of context in an anonymous forum like this.

There is NO pressure to pay tithing. There is encouragement to keep all commandments including tithing. Big difference! I believe God keeps his promises and he promised he would bless those who keep the law of tithing. See Malachi 3:8-12.

Good and accurate post. Fast offerings help local poor and excess is sent up to help others. The humanitarian fund is separate but I could see excess fast offering funds being combined with that. There is also other funds people can donate to if they wish like perpetual education fund which helps poor with micro loans and such in poor countries.

Yes because the Church only is involved in making money (sarcasm off).

Fast offering are for helping the hungry which we gladly pay. We fast two consecutive meals once a month and the money that would have been used for food is donated to help local needy people. Tithing is use for building the church up (bldgs, etc.). That is the truth and it's a wonderful thing! One thing nice about tithing is that if you earn nothing, you pay nothing so it is within people's means of accomplishing.