Under CHSAA rules, kids from small schools which do no not have track or cross country programs can run for schools that do, even though they continue to attend their own schools. One of the top high school XC programs in Colorado, Alamosa High School, often gets good runners under this rule.
Because of its reputation (the program was started by Dr. Joe Vigil) Alamosa does not need to recruit.
Obviously this is happening at a lot more places than just Niwot or Valor. It’s just likely that they’re doing it better than other HS, on top of the fact that Copeland and Christensen are good coaches. With that being said there a few other coaches in the state that I deem to be as good as these coaches (but aren’t working the system to try to win at all costs.
Nice to see Valor Coach Copeland respond, but interesting that he gave no mention of his recent transfers Szuch, Prosceno, or Sundberg (boys team). All three were considered top talents in the state, and suddenly end up at Valor.
Can anyone confirm Christensen was out on probation for sending letters to top area runners...using Real Training, but essentially luring them to Niwot?
Let the kids run wherever they want. A lot of these kids run for these coaches on club teams in the off season, it only makes sense for them to run together during the year. My high school coach was terrible. The club team I ran with indoors was tremendous. Don’t penalize the kid for wanting to run for a knowledgeable coach that will challenge them.
Soso wrote:
Fulkerson definitely competed for Dawson as a freshman and sophomore. She only ran in JV meets this season as she was ineligible via the CHSAA transfer rules. Rumor has it that the Niwot head coach K. Christensen was actually on probation due to recruiting violations for this school year. These coaches are doing all they can to pull at the top athletes to their HS programs. While Real Training (off-season program co-coached by Coach Christensen) is a money maker for those who run the program it’s set up as a lure to all the top athletes (many outside of the Niwot school zone) in the area that partake in the program, as both coaches who run Real Training are head track/XC coaches at Niwot.
Fulkerson was all-state last year while at Dawson.
https://chsaanow.com/2018-11-12/all-state-girls-cross-country-teams-2018/
It feels like you must have no read my post before replying to it: I already said that Fulkerson competed at Dawson in XC in prior years.
I also pointed out that this was her third season competing for Niwot (she ran track at Niwot as a freshman and sophomore, I assume because Dawson doesn't field a track team).
That was why I suggested that it was perhaps a case of a kid withdrawing from the more expensive private school and enrolling in their local public school system rather than an example of a kid transferring schools specifically to run for the Niwot program.
I won't quote your whole post here for the sake of space, but thank you Coach Coplen for stepping up and responding here. That sort of thing does a lot to help steer the conversation in what could ultimately be a helpful direction.
Thank you also for clearing up my misinformation about Taylor Whitfield.
The Valor Track Academy is not, as far as I can tell, in violation of any state rules regarding contact with middle school athletes. Nor as far as I can tell is Real or Amata. But, I do still feel that the contact with pre-high school athletes is a field ripe for abuse. Personally, I wish it didn't exist. I do not understand why the state association leaves that door open when they try so many other ways to limit transfers. But we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that. You see another side of the story, but I see that a lot of speculation could be resolved if that direct contact simply didn't exist.
Ultimately I believe in school choice. That's the side I'll fall on if forced to choose. But I also realize that if we give a massive green light to school choice there will not be anything like an equitable playing field for athletics at the end. There are those who self-limit their activities in the realm of recruiting and there are those who feel like anything is good as long as it doesn't violate some specific rule (and there are also those who willingly violate the rules, but I don't think anyone here is advocating that). On account of this, keeping some sort of equitable balance is difficult and it will always be difficult.
Great post, Greg. Thank you for the information from a fellow Colorado Dad with a middle school daughter, currently headed to Creek.
I will say that, although a lot of schools get runners who are not supposed to go there, that doesn’t mean that school recruited them at all. Once a school starts to have some success/gets pretty good, then there are runners whose school near them might have a terrible program and they think “wait a minute I’d rather go to ___ and win state than my team not even make state” and they go to that school. Often without any pull from that coach whatsoever. So yes, even if teams are made up of some transfers, does not mean there’s been any recruiting
So what does one do if there is a talented and dedicated kid attending a school where the XC/Track program is defined by mediocrity and less-than-committed coaches and there are other schools nearby that have quality programs and quality coaches?
critic 100 wrote:
And Anna Hall woke up on day and said to herself “I think I will transfer to Valor”. No Valor coach never made any contact with her. Let’s cut the crap, Niwot, and Valor cheats.
If you have ever run at one of the myriad of USATF meets that Valor hosts during the summer you would understand why kids would want to run there. Good coaches, good facilities, etc. Valor and Kokopelli in Springs do a tremendous job on the youth side (although I have concerns that a singular focus on running at a young age would lead to over use injuries later on). The programs sell themselves without needing to do much in the way of recruiting. And my kids don’t run for either program, but I respect them. I have my kids in multiple sports at this point.
Regis Jesuit has set the template for years in athletic recruiting using scholarships. This is nothing new and with open enrollment, it has naturally taken root in public schools, as well.
Critic 100 = hater of all successful people.
Last year Loudoun Valley boys had FOUR transfers in their top 7. They also had another one that didn’t make the top 7 last year but made it this year.
Their top girl is a transfer too and their girls team made NXN for the first time ever.
Why are people complaining about Valor. They finished 11th in the state. They ain’t s#it. I’m serious.
Mullen did the same thing in the mid 2000's. My school was suppose to get really good athletes just because they lived in district but Mullen threw them an athletic scholarship to attend since they're a private catholic school. None of those athletes ever competed pass college and even then, they were cooked from specializing at a young age. By the way, why did Alayna Szuch's parent post get deleted? I'm assuming she is injured since she was not in the later season cross meets including State. I've been following her since she was 11 years old when she got into the road running scene here. It was kind of alarming to see someone as young as her warming up for the Rocky Mountain Shootout for a solid hour before running a 6k and cooling down the same amount as a collegiate athlete. It's great that these kids get exposure now but it looks like the system is setting them up for failure when they should be in the peak running years in their 20's/30's.
Not dominating. Not anything. wrote:
Why are people complaining about Valor. They finished 11th in the state. They ain’t s#it. I’m serious.
Because their girls just qualified for NXN with two transfers, after not being anywhere close to winning state! Did you not pay attention to the NXR SW results?
lovelybones wrote:
Mullen did the same thing in the mid 2000's. My school was suppose to get really good athletes just because they lived in district but Mullen threw them an athletic scholarship to attend since they're a private catholic school. None of those athletes ever competed pass college and even then, they were cooked from specializing at a young age. By the way, why did Alayna Szuch's parent post get deleted? I'm assuming she is injured since she was not in the later season cross meets including State. I've been following her since she was 11 years old when she got into the road running scene here. It was kind of alarming to see someone as young as her warming up for the Rocky Mountain Shootout for a solid hour before running a 6k and cooling down the same amount as a collegiate athlete. It's great that these kids get exposure now but it looks like the system is setting them up for failure when they should be in the peak running years in their 20's/30's.
See above...did you not pay attention to the NXR SW results? Szuch ran for the first time all season, was their top girls, and lead them to NXN.
Valor XC Coach wrote:
Good morning, friends. I wanted to chime in here as I'm actually the XC & Distance coach at Valor. My name is Greg Coplen and this is my 8th year coaching at Valor. I don't get on letsrun very often, but the house is quiet so far on this Thanksgiving morning. So, I just came across this thread.
Allow me to respond to a few thoughts on this thread.
I don't know the exact "CHSAA rule" wording regarding middle school contact, but I know that it does not extend to club sports. There are many high school coaches throughout this state that coach during the winter/summer within a club. Kelly from Niwot is not the only high school coach at REAL training. There are coaches from several local high schools that work with REAL training and they're an absolutely fantastic club. Valor has chosen to have it's own middle school/high school academy and we work within CHSAA rules. We would not be allowed to have an academy if we did not work within those rules. That's the bottom line. And there are many clubs within CO that have the same setup with high school coaches.
Taylor Whitfield-someone said that she ran at a Colorado Springs middle school. Taylor lives 1 mile from Valor and always has. She was homeschooled growing up and hadn't run more than a mile before high school. The only club she ever ran with was ours, she didn't run distance, and she long jumped about 11 feet. She was generally one of our last place runners during the summer leading up to freshman year. She's since become a 4:55, 10:35, 17:33 girl. She works really hard and has great success. It's possible there is another Taylor in Colorado Springs, but it's not our Taylor.
We also have a girl on our team this year, Ashley Jones, that lost her right arms in an ATV accident 4 years ago. She tore her ACL playing soccer two years ago and started running with us last spring. She was our #5 runner, ran 18:35 at NXR, and signed with High Point University to continue her success as a mid/distance runner.
Regarding transfers: Valor has numerous transfers come in every year, some play sports and some don't. It's a college prep high school with an incredible Arts program, great facilities and a great staff. It's also a Christian faith based school. There are many families that send their kids to our school because of those things. The school costs $20,000 a year. There is tuition assistance, needs-based, that is decided upon by a group outside the walls of Valor. Very much like a FASFA. But the majority of our families are paying that full tuition cost.
Regarding recruiting: We do our absolute best to do things the right way, to play by the same rules as everyone else. We have two open houses a year where we're allowed to talk with families about all things athletic or beyond. We can answer any question during those open houses. We actually employ a CHSAA compliance officer at the school. There were some recruiting violations early on at Valor and I promise the school has learned a lot regarding those past mistakes.
I'm not going to get into the personal transfers of any of our kids, but I will promise you they were done the right way regarding CHSAA rules. Kids know at this point they will 99% lose a year of eligibility if they make a transfer. That's not just a XC things, that's an all-sports thing. The two high profile transfers that came in to our program this year lost a year of Varsity and it was very, very hard on them. They made the switch because they wanted something different, like most families do when they make a switch.
Colorado is an open enrollment state. Kids can go to any school they want to. I'll just speak about the schools that are within a 10 mile radius of Valor because I know those schools more, but every one of those programs, XC and beyond, have kids competing that actually "should" go to school somewhere else. Kids/families will go to school where they want to. Generally an athletic program will benefit from that.
Someone spoke about Cole Sprout only getting 1/2 year of ineligibility. Up until two years ago that was the CHSAA rule. 1/2 year of Varsity ineligibility. Again, that was the rule for any kid in the state, for any sport, if it was deemed non-athletically motivated and Cole's was deemed that. I can promise you that CHSAA did not change that ruling because of a high school distance runner.
I don't write this looking for an argument or debate. I really just wanted to introduce myself and say we're doing things the right way and working really hard just like any other school. Our kids train together 46 weeks of the year and have made a decision this is what they want to be good at, just like numerous other schools. A lot of our kids run 46 weeks of the year because they just love the culture and friends they've made. They won't be running at the next level and many of them will never taste a Varsity race.
My first year of coaching at Valor we finished 11th out of 13 teams in a weaker 4A region. The next year, with the same exact girls we finished 7th and qualified our first ever individual for state. The next year, we qualified for state as a team for the first time and have qualified every year since. We had a girl on that team who ran a 12:47 mile when she first started. She ran a 19:00 5K that year and ended up running D1 when she left high school. Another girl that went from a 20:30 down to a 18:06. That team really started the build for our program. It's grown and it's grown the right way. Our growth has looked like a number of programs that have a culture of wanting something better than what they've had in the past. The girls bought in and have made it happen.
I guess lastly is just this: the kids/families in our program, like most high school XC programs, are high character kids and families. They're not dishonest families looking for a "recruiting" come-on. I try my best to be a high character coach and leader. To be a high character husband and father. I'm not some evil coach and we're not some evil school. I have fantastic friends within the coaching community and those outside coaches that know me and our program best know we're doing this the right way.
I love high school sports and I'm doing my best to give kids a great experience, probably like most of your own coaches.
I hope each of you has a fantastic Thanksgiving Day. Much to be thankful for. Enjoy your winter and spring of coaching and competing. My email at the school is
greg.coplen@valorchristian.com. If you ever have a question about any of what I've talked about please feel free to reach out. I'm not the enemy and I really want to have relationships with other coaches that let them know I'm/we're not the enemy.
Peace, my friends.
If you field one phone call or email from a parent or kid who is thinking of transferring, it is a CHSAA violation. I am willing to bet you have talked to numerous parents and kids about transferring before they arrived at the school, correct? That is why it is illegal recruiting. Transferring isn't illegal, recruiting and talking to parents through your club is illegal. Niwot coach is in trouble for recruiting, one year probation. Just because rules aren't easily enforced doesn't make it legal. Not getting caught doesn't mean you are doing it the "right way."
lovelybones wrote:
Mullen did the same thing in the mid 2000's. My school was suppose to get really good athletes just because they lived in district but Mullen threw them an athletic scholarship to attend since they're a private catholic school. None of those athletes ever competed pass college and even then, they were cooked from specializing at a young age. By the way, why did Alayna Szuch's parent post get deleted? I'm assuming she is injured since she was not in the later season cross meets including State. I've been following her since she was 11 years old when she got into the road running scene here. It was kind of alarming to see someone as young as her warming up for the Rocky Mountain Shootout for a solid hour before running a 6k and cooling down the same amount as a collegiate athlete. It's great that these kids get exposure now but it looks like the system is setting them up for failure when they should be in the peak running years in their 20's/30's.
I recall the Scholls doing similarly many years ago, racing the RMS as tweens. Tabor is a senior at CU now and had been their dependable #2 runner until the postseason. No idea what Tyler is up to these days, did he score a scholarship to somewhere?
Tabor left CU briefly because she thought she could make it pro. That didn’t seem to work out to well obviously. She got hurt from doing plyos in a gym with her brother less than 3 days out from the regional meet.
lovelybones wrote:
Tabor left CU briefly because she thought she could make it pro. That didn’t seem to work out to well obviously. She got hurt from doing plyos in a gym with her brother less than 3 days out from the regional meet.
For real. Wonder if Wetmore/Burroughs regret using scholarship money on her, or was she a walk-on? ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ Shades of Hadley, Deak, among many others.
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year
I’m a D2 female runner. Our coach explicitly told us not to visit LetsRun forums.
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