If you're a 2:11 guy shouldn't you skip trials and get PAID at Boston

sbeefyk2 wrote:

I don't understand why you can't do both. Marathon training includes 20+ mile long runs. So an extra 10k or less wouldn't break the body (physically). There's no reason you can't run the Trials, take a few days to recover and just maintain fitness for 6 weeks until Boston.

That would be right for a 'hobbyjogger' who relies mostly on advancing his general fitness from one training cycle to the next. A professional athlete is close to the ceiling in terms of raw ability and they're rather 'sharpening' for their A-race, that state can be hardly maintained for as long as 6 weeks or lost and regained in such a short time.

A 2:11 marathoner is no better than a 1:50 800 runner, i.e. not even in the conversation as far as world class. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

So if your dream is to make it at a sham-elite event, at least pick the one that pays you, because there will be no glory.

because the course is hilly, some 2:13 guy could show up and place third out of no where.

parker stinson will be on the team imo

GetPAID wrote:

Had this thought today that the handful of 2:11 guys who may or may not come close to top 3 at the trials, wouldn't make more sense career wise and also for their bank account to instead focus on being top 5 and top American at Boston. I would imagine prize money and a sponsor pay day has to be better than maybe, maybe not qualifying for trials. And then even if you do get an Olympic spot what then? finish in 20th place?

I would assume a weak American field at Boston being only 6 weeks from trials. Thoughts?

It depends what you expect when you are 65 and looking back.

If $$$$ is more important than representing your nation in the Olympics, then run Boston.

There are plenty of times to wear a national singlet, but the Olympics only comes around once every 4 years.

Bad Wigins wrote:

A 2:11 marathoner is no better than a 1:50 800 runner, i.e. not even in the conversation as far as world class. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

So if your dream is to make it at a sham-elite event, at least pick the one that pays you, because there will be no glory.

This is the truth.

Huh?? wrote:

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

Yeah. Everyone has thinks this is doable. Very, very few pull it off. Even when the runners bail out at mile 10-18, it rarely seems to make a difference. There are a few people that seem to be able to pull off running 2 legit hard (not running 5 mins off your PR) marathons close together but they are the exception versus the rule.

I think in the end the chance of making the olympic team (i.e. if you are a 2:11 guy you are probably in the 5% range) far outweighs anything you can get with a top 5 at boston.

If you can’t run 10 miles at MP and recover within a few weeks, you are not Olympic material. Most of these guy can run 18 miles at MP and be fine within 1 week to race again. 10-14 at MP is just a workout.

Sure but that is during a training cycle and not at the the end of taper. Again go look at the history of people who dropped out between miles 10-20 and then tried to run another marathon in 6 weeks. You rarely get good efforts. And lets not talk about how many of those people do 15 mile runs at MP in training and then can't hold the pace for 13 miles during the actual race...

At least one or two of those so-called 2:11 guys could improve to 2:09:45 at the Trials and make the team.

Bad Wigins wrote:

A 2:11 marathoner is no better than a 1:50 800 runner, i.e. not even in the conversation as far as world class. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

So if your dream is to make it at a sham-elite event, at least pick the one that pays you, because there will be no glory.

My nominee for worst post of the week.

According to the IAAF scoring tables, a 1:50 800 is equivalent to a 2:17:50 marathon.

A 2:11:59 marathon is equivalent to a 1:46.58 800 according to the scoring tables.

Huh?? wrote:

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

Yeah. Everyone has thinks this is doable. Very, very few pull it off. Even when the runners bail out at mile 10-18, it rarely seems to make a difference. There are a few people that seem to be able to pull off running 2 legit hard (not running 5 mins off your PR) marathons close together but they are the exception versus the rule.

I think in the end the chance of making the olympic team (i.e. if you are a 2:11 guy you are probably in the 5% range) far outweighs anything you can get with a top 5 at boston.

If you can’t run 10 miles at MP and recover within a few weeks, you are not Olympic material. Most of these guy can run 18 miles at MP and be fine within 1 week to race again. 10-14 at MP is just a workout.

Yep, I had a bad marathon where I went to about halfway at my MP then dropped. Within the week I was doing normal workouts and two weeks later I ran a solid half. Especially after you've done a couple thon's you recover from them much quicker. The last 6 -8 miles are what takes the brutal toll on your body that requires the extra time. You could say the marathon follows the 80-20 rule. The last 20% of the race does 80% of the damage from a recovery standpoint, largely from adding that last push through energy depletion and the cumulative effect of already having pounded on asphalt for 20 miles. If you stop at 20 miles at MP your recovery time is not going to be 75% of the duration it would have been if you completed the race, it's not a linear thing.

When you see a guy dropout of the marathon and are considering will they be able to find another marathon in a month or so and perform well you have to look at why they dropped. Were they sick, having a bad day, went out to fast, etc. If so chances are good they can put out a good performance pretty quickly. Was the issue their fitness wasn't where it should be? If that's the cause then yes a month and a half is not going to make much of an impact.

And what was your marathon time 4 weeks after that half? How much did you chop off your PR?:) I have know and read about a bunch of guys that dropped out of marathons between 10-20 miles cause they weren't feeling it/weather was bad/... . Pretty much none of them ran well in the rebound race in 4-8 weeks. The people that finish the marathon and then try to come back actually seem to do better. It makes no sense but I have a feeling that a good chunk is that nobody drops out of a marathon when they are running well and our superfit

Bad Wigins wrote:

A 2:11 marathoner is no better than a 1:50 800 runner, i.e. not even in the conversation as far as world class. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

So if your dream is to make it at a sham-elite event, at least pick the one that pays you, because there will be no glory.

It's been ages since an 800 guy with a PR of 1:50 has made a US Olympic team. But guys with slower PBs have gone to the Trials and made the team now and again. Shorter comes to mind immediately as does Pete Pfitzinger both of whom did it in years when 1:50 didn't even get you into the Trials.

But let's give you that point anyway. So which sham-elite event are you recommending for the 2:11 guy assuming he will win neither race? If he runs well at the Trials there will be money and possibly a spot in the Olympics. If he runs well at Boston there will be money but no possible spot in the Olympics.

I wanna see this conversion chart

rojo wrote:

According to the IAAF scoring tables, a 1:50 800 is equivalent to a 2:17:50 marathon.

A 2:11:59 marathon is equivalent to a 1:46.58 800 according to the scoring tables.

Then the scoring tables smoke crack, probably because they have mountains of data for road races at all levels, and relatively little data for the 800.

131 / 121 x 101 = 109, so I'll give you 1:49 instead of 1:50. So what? That's still not close to elite. Neither is 1:46.58.

Maybe people's perception is warped by history. It USED to be a 2:11 marathon was the best anyone could do, fifty years ago when 1:44 was the best 800. But since then the marathon has improved by 9% and the 800 by only 4%. NOW a 1:44 is still very good but 2:11 has been dropped.

When the 2:03 and better elites go to their serious races, the 2:11 guys are not in the conversation - not even as pacesetters for the first pack, as they are usually too slow to run a 61 HM. One of them gets camera time as the top runner from the host European country, and maybe catches a few elites who blow up and start jogging. Glory.

If there's any crack smoking going on here the scoring tables are not doing it. A 2:11 marathon qualifies a runner for the Olympics regardless of world ranking. You need 1 :45 and change to do that in the 800.

GetPAID wrote:

Had this thought today that the handful of 2:11 guys who may or may not come close to top 3 at the trials, wouldn't make more sense career wise and also for their bank account to instead focus on being top 5 and top American at Boston. I would imagine prize money and a sponsor pay day has to be better than maybe, maybe not qualifying for trials. And then even if you do get an Olympic spot what then? finish in 20th place?

I would assume a weak American field at Boston being only 6 weeks from trials. Thoughts?

dude, if you have a 211 and get lucky, and you're on your A game, that is probably 3rd spot.

realize that 1/4 marathons are you on your A game. or worse for the one off, like a trials.

normally if you go to a marathon, and you're not going good, you skip.

look at the olympics, 95 percent of the field don't come within 4 minutes of their PR. if that.

but at the OG, a 211 guy is going no where, the A game there might get you 12th....

not so shabby though.

why not go to the corrupt OG, for the adventure.

could be fun.

if not, forget about it.

Like faster runners can't successfully figure out training for and racing on hills lol

entering the bad wiggins discussion, 211 marathon equals a 149 800?

in terms of personal accomplishment, the 211 marathon is much superior.

a good sprinter with modest work can get a 148 in a season or two.

211 marathon is going to take a lot more dedication and a lot longer.

in terms of equating the times i'd give the 211 marathon and equivalence of about 147 high or 148 for 800m

you can be very proud of a 211.