Mary Cain hot take

Is it possible to dislike Salazar and his coaching and also think Cain's situation is being blown way out of proportion? I think Salazar was a shady coach who likely cared very little for his athletes as people, but I still don't like how this article has started a wave of victimizing female athletes. The women I ran with in college were twice as tough as the men, mentally and physically. They weren't fragile flowers. There have to be ladies out there who don't like this. I would not like this if it were about men (being a man) because it makes runners look like pansies.

agip wrote:

yeah true. She was wrong to trust Alberto Salazar. He was a terrible coach for her and she didn't realize it.

I guess we can agree on that.

Yeah I think most of us agree that Alberto isn't responsible for whatever Mary did to harm herself, and Alberto also was not the right coach for her. There are athletes who can hear "you're 5 lbs overweight" and say "ok what can we do about it" and others who cannot. That's being a professional athlete in any sport, and for any gender.

RetiredAthlete wrote:

agip wrote:

yeah true. She was wrong to trust Alberto Salazar. He was a terrible coach for her and she didn't realize it.

I guess we can agree on that.

Yeah I think most of us agree that Alberto isn't responsible for whatever Mary did to harm herself, and Alberto also was not the right coach for her. There are athletes who can hear "you're 5 lbs overweight" and say "ok what can we do about it" and others who cannot. That's being a professional athlete in any sport, and for any gender.

The issue is whether the weight loss was necessary and well thought out. She did follow Salazar's and the nutrionist's diet recommendations and it backfired.

She was 18 years old, probably idolized Salazar and was going to follow his advice. It was his responsibility to act in her best interests and he failed miserably.

agip wrote:

Shorter Frank here wrote:

You Americans are soft as fck. In Russia saying your ass is fat would be a compliment from the couch.

Also I don't understand this if you get slower year after year than why keep hammering the same way? Why just not quit? She kept doing something half way, failed it both ways and now she's blaming others for it. Surely it hurts if you have wasted your career like that but step up and take some responsibility for your own actions. It's not like you were 10 years old kid who doesn't understand anything

I don't buy this.

yeah true. She was wrong to trust Alberto Salazar. He was a terrible coach for her and she didn't realize it.

I guess we can agree on that.

Again you put the blame on Alberto. It's always someones else fault.

I can totally agree that not everyone can be coached by everyone. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. But to put all the blame on the couch is just childish. NOP athletes weren't kids, all of them had serious years of training under the belt. You can't be that stupid not to sense that it's not working out.

Also I hate this millennial trend of playing the victim card and blaming others once things doesn't flow your way.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

RetiredAthlete wrote:

Yeah I think most of us agree that Alberto isn't responsible for whatever Mary did to harm herself, and Alberto also was not the right coach for her. There are athletes who can hear "you're 5 lbs overweight" and say "ok what can we do about it" and others who cannot. That's being a professional athlete in any sport, and for any gender.

The issue is whether the weight loss was necessary and well thought out. She did follow Salazar's and the nutrionist's diet recommendations and it backfired.

She was 18 years old, probably idolized Salazar and was going to follow his advice. It was his responsibility to act in her best interests and he failed miserably.

She would have failed under any coach. She doesn’t have it.

Shorter Frank here wrote:

Frank Shorter here wrote:

I don't know what you guys or Mary Cain expects.

If you don't want to do high level sports than don't sign up for it.

Couldn't agree more with this. Sport is becoming pathetic like everything else around. You can't say a word anymore not risking insulting or victimizing someone.

Let's be honest, Mary Cain joined the most prestige training group on the planet that have the top most ambitions. And she is shocked that couch asks her to lose weight. Of course she is by no means "fat" compared to average joe, but when it comes to distance running she is far from ideal weight. Did she has free choice? Absolutely and if she did not agree with Alberto she could leave instantly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o25I2fzFGoY

Didn’t she claim that Salazar wanted her to take a prohibited diuretic? You can argue that coaches need to tell their professional athletes to regulate weight (e.g., Zion Williamson in pre-season), but you can’t argue that it is acceptable for them to encourage the athletes to do so by taking banned substances.

She also claimed that she told Salazar and other NOP people that she was cutting herself, and no one did anything about it. That's a sign she was developing a significant psychiatric disorder. They should have gotten her psychiatric help, told her parents, something.

If these are true, I don’t think either can be justified under the “professional athlete exception”.

Where were Mary’s parents during this whole ordeal? Why would you let a teenager join one of the most elite programs in the sport when she’s not physically or emotionally ready? Even colleges weigh athletes and sometimes use negative coaching techniques. I believe she’s telling the truth of how she saw it but why was she even there?

Frank Shorter here wrote:

I don't know what you guys or Mary Cain expects.

If you don't want to do high level sports than don't sign up for it.

Agreed

Pretzel Man wrote:

Frank Shorter here wrote:

I don't know what you guys or Mary Cain expects.

If you don't want to do high level sports than don't sign up for it.

Agreed

10000000%

I agree with the main sentiment in this thread. For argument's sake let us assume Alberto did what she claims (which is of course contested). If Mary Cain was a high school or collegiate athlete, obsessing on her weight would have been inappropriate. But she wasn't a high school or collegiate athlete. She joined a professional program were she was hired and paid to become the fastest runner in her world.

She wasn't a hobby jogger trying to run a fast marathon in-between having a career and raising a family or a high school athlete or a collegiate athlete. I'm shocked the media fails to understand this.

It's like complaining because you don't like the work your boss assigns you.

Salazar is wrong and Cain is wrong.

Duh.

Wrong fit.

Sal can't coach women.

Cain is mind weak.

A coach trains you to be a winner, not a loser. But oftentimes, a coach and athlete relationship fails to produce the intended result. That is when they part ways. The athlete will then find a new coach. Mary bringing this all now appears mean-spirited, like kicking Alberto when he's down or sprinkling more salt on the wound. I get that she's bitter. Please prove to us that Alberto was the wrong coach for you and make 2020 your comeback year. Make 2021 your PR year. Make 2022 your American Record year. And make 2023 your world record year. And make 2024 your Olympic Champion year.

Shorter Frank here wrote:

agip wrote:

yeah true. She was wrong to trust Alberto Salazar. He was a terrible coach for her and she didn't realize it.

I guess we can agree on that.

Again you put the blame on Alberto. It's always someones else fault.

I can totally agree that not everyone can be coached by everyone. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. But to put all the blame on the couch is just childish. NOP athletes weren't kids, all of them had serious years of training under the belt. You can't be that stupid not to sense that it's not working out.

Also I hate this millennial trend of playing the victim card and blaming others once things doesn't flow your way.

I'll acknowledge that an 18 year old woman should have been better able to take care of herself. She should have left.

But coach/athlete is a partnership. I don't think one can honestly debate the fact that Salazar broke Cain because of terrible coaching. A coach needs to work *with* an athlete and sort out what is best for the athlete. After Cain ran terriby under his coaching he should have either sent her away or changed her program.

And avoiding the male-female..60 yr old world famous coach - 18 year old woman...imbalance is just choosing to ignore human nature. He should have known better. he should have known that she didn't feel able to defend herself. He's a coach. That's what coaches do.

I am going to take a long shot here and say most of the people commenting on this are men, (I am XY identify as male as well). Because of that I think a lot of posters are not identifying with the situation Mary Cain was put in.

Whether you believe Salazar was a good coach or a bad one isn't the point. He was the head of NOP and the NOP was a flawed system that failed Mary Cain.

Cain's main take away from the NYT article was the lack of having someone to turn to. I fully believe that you need to trust in your coach to be successful. That is true if you are a couch to 5K runner, or an Olympic hopeful, BUT there needs to be checks and balances in place, especially when you are dealing with someone who is so young. Truly how many 18-22 year old are fully capable of life altering decisions. Our government may believe they're adults are but be honest, in today's america, college is where a lot of people grow up.

What this leaves us with is, a win at all cost coach, a young female athlete, no one watching out for the athlete, a culture that does not allow subordinate questions, and a message board saying Mary Cain wasn't cut out for it.

She was an exceptional athlete that the system failed both physically and emotionally, and instead of blaming the victim we should blame the system and its creators.

Hayduke wrote:

mkng1 wrote:

She might have responded better but with a less strenuous approach wouldn't be a world beater. It was medal or bust for Alberto.

This.... it’s a group for the bekeles and coe’s if the world

You should not be taking a medal or bust approach with an 18 year old. Cain's career could span a decade and a half. You don't go all-in on one or two years at that age. BTW Alberto knows this and has shown the ability to take the long run and develop athletes over years. See Galen and Jordan. Galen was a kid who was many years away from the world's stage when Alberto first coached him.

Although I think Alberto is guilty on the doping allegations on this one I'm taking a wait and see. What she is accusing Salazar and others of goes way beyond irresponsible coaching or not fitting her with the right plan. The fact that she tried to go back to him in April and her parents who are doctors would let that happen makes me question some of what she said. I also know a high percentage of young female talents I have come accross have had a tendency to be a bit crazy and potentially twist the events. Although the silence from some of the others in the program are making me find what she said more believable. She basically said they stood by while Salazaar shamed her and if that was not true I think one of them would have come out and denied it.

"She would have failed under any coach. She doesn’t have it."

Right -- I guess she just got lucky with the national records. Idiot.

At least according to this runner, AlSal was on the forefront of keeping his athletes healthy by promoting alternatives to road miles. I had the opportunity to interview Alberto, Galen and Centrowitz. Both of the runners heavily emphasized how Alberto was ALWAYS trying something new. Maybe not as cutting edge as you are but I think your analysis of Salazar's methods are under-informed. Trust me, I am not into how he purportedly treated Mary Cain but there's a reason she asked back in. Just look at the results he helped produce at this most recent World Champs. And when it comes to doping, just a reminder here, the decision clearly states that he was not found guilty of doping athletes.

Pretzel Man wrote:

Frank Shorter here wrote:

I don't know what you guys or Mary Cain expects.

If you don't want to do high level sports than don't sign up for it.

Agreed

I think there is some truth to this and many either have lost sight of this or are oblivious to this. At the elite level are in a stressful environment. Your coach may ask you to lose weight to improve performance. It can be a tough world and there are bad times when you're injured or other issues arise. I don't think Mary Cain was ready for this program anywhere and would have had issues in other programs as well.

That said some of the things she said if true go beyond the normal and are things no athlete should be exposed to. If an athlete needs to lose weight it should be discussed in private, not in front of the team. She should not have been asked to abuse drugs and take them in a manner that may violate anti-doping protocols to lose weight. Yelling at a young girl over a bad race in public, although not against any rules or laws, is very poor coaching and is all but guaranteed not to get a good result. It's not unusual for athletes to get a good chewing out after a bad performance, sometimes I've seen it have fantastic results, but there is a different way to handle people based on age, gender, and personality. Although you can say when you're a professional you have to divorce yourself from the emotion, the bottom line is the athlete is a person with a unique personality and to get the best result each athlete needs to be handled differently.

markboen wrote:

A coach trains you to be a winner, not a loser. But oftentimes, a coach and athlete relationship fails to produce the intended result. That is when they part ways. The athlete will then find a new coach. Mary bringing this all now appears mean-spirited, like kicking Alberto when he's down or sprinkling more salt on the wound. I get that she's bitter. Please prove to us that Alberto was the wrong coach for you and make 2020 your comeback year. Make 2021 your PR year. Make 2022 your American Record year. And make 2023 your world record year. And make 2024 your Olympic Champion year.

Salazar might have it impossible for her to comeback successfully. In that video of her running in the mountains her stride looked terrible. She wasn't injured at the time, but mentioned something about her leg feeling "Nervey". If the imbalance in her stride is permanent she is going to experience a never ending string of injuries.