Is Kimetto's 2:02:57 the fastest Non-Vaporfly assisted Marathon?

The fact that you all believe the shoe makes someone run faster is proof of the power of marketing. They have you all fooled. Yes, there's some academic studies that show benefits from the shoe, but the results are suspect. They take a runner's time without the shoes and with the shoes. They claim they control for exogenous variables, but they cannot control for the placebo benefit if being more confident and expecting to run faster in the shoes. Therefore you run faster and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that you run faster in the shoes when in reality it was simply the first time you ran close to your 100% potential.

I hate to burst your bubbles, but it's all marketing. The shoes don't make you run faster by themselves.

Shoeless wrote:

Abebe Bikila’s 2:15:16 is the standing legitimate WR

+1

Shoe hypocrites go home DEVASTATED.

___

Dennis Kimetto, an actual nobody, was a net beneficiary of at least Pharma-C-How Fast You Can Go™️ Grade-AAA EPOMG 5%™️ erythropoietin so we shouldn’t be casually factoring Nike’s Vaporfly performance claims into any imaginary calculus.

sbeefyk2 wrote:

The fact that you all believe the shoe makes someone run faster is proof of the power of marketing. They have you all fooled. Yes, there's some academic studies that show benefits from the shoe, but the results are suspect. They take a runner's time without the shoes and with the shoes. They claim they control for exogenous variables, but they cannot control for the placebo benefit if being more confident and expecting to run faster in the shoes. Therefore you run faster and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that you run faster in the shoes when in reality it was simply the first time you ran close to your 100% potential.

I hate to burst your bubbles, but it's all marketing. The shoes don't make you run faster by themselves.

Don't be stupid, a placebo effect can't make up for a 4% lower heart rate running at the same speed.

sbeefyk2 wrote:

The fact that you all believe the shoe makes someone run faster is proof of the power of marketing. They have you all fooled. Yes, there's some academic studies that show benefits from the shoe, but the results are suspect. They take a runner's time without the shoes and with the shoes. They claim they control for exogenous variables, but they cannot control for the placebo benefit if being more confident and expecting to run faster in the shoes. Therefore you run faster and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that you run faster in the shoes when in reality it was simply the first time you ran close to your 100% potential.

I hate to burst your bubbles, but it's all marketing. The shoes don't make you run faster by themselves.

True to that bruh.

Here's something to rock the VaporFly believers.

If you believe in Vaporfly giving you the benefit, then please let people know when you PB that you attribute all the success to the shoes and not your hard work and training, because ... well, they are cheater shoes after all.

You can't go on forums claiming that the shoes are cheater shoes and when you perform on race day, don't attribute your success to your shoes.

Own it to your beliefs and not have your cake and eat it too ;-)

Funny how all your cheaterfly folks suddenly gone dark. LOL. I know because that's usually how people respond to my suggestion.

Shoeless wrote:

Abebe Bikila’s 2:15:16 is the standing legitimate WR

THIS ^

Bad Wigins wrote:

Every performance faster than his was done either by or following Kipchoge or Bekele. The shoes had nothing to do with it, it's all about those two trailblazers who were the first who dared start fast enough to finish that fast. A very few of those who went with them got lucky.

Without Kipchoge, it's about 50/50 whether anyone at all would have beaten Kimetto yet. And in case you've forgotten, Kimetto had his own supposed "energy return" shoes from Adidas. All the major brands have been continually repackaging that nonsense for decades, at least since the rollout of Nike Air.

That's categorically false:

4 2:02:48 Birhanu Legesse ETH 09.11.94 2 Berlin 29.09.2019

5 2:02:55 Mosinet Geremew ETH 12.02.92 2 London 28.04.2019

I'm FFF wrote:

This is when the moron/Nike shill chimes in and says "it's the foam."

Just watch Dubai early next year. I bet 6-10 are together late, with most coming in under 2:01 or 2:02, and all wearing this shoe. Tell me when someone wearing a shoe that's not a Cheaterfly, or a competitor clone, runs under 2:02.

If it's not the foam, then why aren't people lighting it up with the Hokas? Or the Brooks test shoe, or NB etc? I get the point of the carbon plate as a structural member to help that flimsy ZoomX. But I wouldn't attribute the plate to the main difference. Not sure how a horizontal plate helps reduce muscle fatigue late in a race.

And I don't doubt it.. Dubai will have a bunch of fast dudes in Nikes, then like one guy in Adidas. Since people started pacing marathons for 2:02-2:01 target times, Adidas really hasn't even had a presence at all. Mary Keitany is about the last elite out there in Adidas it seems.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Bekele.

Are you literally Banana Bread?

Treole wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

Every performance faster than his was done either by or following Kipchoge or Bekele. The shoes had nothing to do with it, it's all about those two trailblazers who were the first who dared start fast enough to finish that fast. A very few of those who went with them got lucky.

Without Kipchoge, it's about 50/50 whether anyone at all would have beaten Kimetto yet. And in case you've forgotten, Kimetto had his own supposed "energy return" shoes from Adidas. All the major brands have been continually repackaging that nonsense for decades, at least since the rollout of Nike Air.

That's categorically false:

4 2:02:48 Birhanu Legesse ETH 09.11.94 2 Berlin 29.09.2019

5 2:02:55 Mosinet Geremew ETH 12.02.92 2 London 28.04.2019

Your reading comprehension needs work, bruh.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Every performance faster than his was done either by or following Kipchoge or Bekele. The shoes had nothing to do with it, it's all about those two trailblazers who were the first who dared start fast enough to finish that fast. A very few of those who went with them got lucky.

Without Kipchoge, it's about 50/50 whether anyone at all would have beaten Kimetto yet. And in case you've forgotten, Kimetto had his own supposed "energy return" shoes from Adidas. All the major brands have been continually repackaging that nonsense for decades, at least since the rollout of Nike Air.

You forgot about the guy that was second place at this years London Marathon.

You have to be kidding. Kimetto couldn't be touched without going through Canova. And we know Canova is dirty. Vapor fly are nothing compared to what was probably running through Kimmeto's system. If he was clean its even more a shame that Canova didn't get his knee fixed immediately. I know a few Ortho's that saw the knee and said it could be fixed but Canova was so protective that he wouldn't let anyone touch him and ended Kimmetto's career.

In short, move down the list if you're looking for the top unassisted time

GEREMEW wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

Every performance faster than his was done either by or following Kipchoge or Bekele. The shoes had nothing to do with it, it's all about those two trailblazers who were the first who dared start fast enough to finish that fast. A very few of those who went with them got lucky.

Without Kipchoge, it's about 50/50 whether anyone at all would have beaten Kimetto yet. And in case you've forgotten, Kimetto had his own supposed "energy return" shoes from Adidas. All the major brands have been continually repackaging that nonsense for decades, at least since the rollout of Nike Air.

You forgot about the guy that was second place at this years London Marathon.

Your reading comprehension needs work, bruh.

Sgt Joe Friday wrote:

Adidas really hasn't even had a presence at all. Mary Keitany is about the last elite out there in Adidas it seems.

True and this is one of the main reason nike marketing works so well, they basically sponsor 95% of african elite marathoners nowadays. Adidas has some others left like Tamirat Tola, Leule Gebrselassie or Guye Adola (who temporary gapped Kipchoge in 2017 without some magic shoes), but they all didn't hit top shape for quite some while now, so even better for Nike. There are more at shorter distances, e.g. all those times faster than Florence Kiplagat's old half marathon WR were run by adidas athletes, but of course nobody cares.

Thanks! Fixed it a bit. If it's not the plate(s) then why didn't Kipchoge ran on a pair of Pegasus Turbo instead?

Every high jump record set since 1968 is illegitimate. All record-setters since then have mimicked Dick Fosbury and likely would have broken their necks on their first jump without the advent of the foam pit.

Alas, the true record holders in this event, too, are probably Kenyan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qTAeVGl_e8

sbeefyk2 wrote:

The fact that you all believe the shoe makes someone run faster is proof of the power of marketing. They have you all fooled. Yes, there's some academic studies that show benefits from the shoe, but the results are suspect. They take a runner's time without the shoes and with the shoes. They claim they control for exogenous variables, but they cannot control for the placebo benefit if being more confident and expecting to run faster in the shoes. Therefore you run faster and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that you run faster in the shoes when in reality it was simply the first time you ran close to your 100% potential.

I hate to burst your bubbles, but it's all marketing. The shoes don't make you run faster by themselves.

This, but as I said previously we are fighting a losing battle trying to convince the majority of LRC who are angry because they don't make enough money and/or can't even break 2:30 in a marathon no matter what shoes they wear.

Or let's just all pretend Kimetto is the greatest runner and marathoner ever, of all-time and would have been 4% faster - 1:58 flat. Or let's lower the stakes a bit, and say he would only have been 2% faster - that's still 2:00:30 and a CLEAR WR. Ok, let's say he would only be ONE PERCENT FASTER with the shoes - that's still 2:01:30 and a WR.

On one hand, LRC calls Kipchoge and Bekele the GOATS and best marathoners ever, on the other they think that the VF is MULTIPLE % faster than any other shoe, YET they don't acknowledge that Kimetto would have run sub 2 or very close at it with the shoes. So something is wrong with their logic. I originally thought it's just Nike employees doing all these posts, but there are just way to many and LRC is a laughably small community in the greater picture so they probably don't even care.

Sgt Joe Friday wrote:

If it's not the foam, then why aren't people lighting it up with the Hokas? Or the Brooks test shoe, or NB etc? I get the point of the carbon plate as a structural member to help that flimsy ZoomX. But I wouldn't attribute the plate to the main difference. Not sure how a horizontal plate helps reduce muscle fatigue late in a race.

BECAUSE HOKA AND BROOKS ARENT SPONSORING KENYANS AND EHTIOPIANS YOU ABSOLUTE BASKET CASE.

When will people realise that the reason why so many athletes run fast in Nike is because Nike has a near monopoly on African talent? They’re the only ones to offer contracts to Africans on the roads, and do it so that they can have a monopoly on those shots of a lead pack of elites dressed in the same uniform wearing the same shoes so hobbyjoggers like you all can think they’re magic and fork out $300 for them. My brain hurts reading thread after thread of this garbage.

YOUMOROM wrote:

[quote]Sgt Joe Friday wrote:

BECAUSE HOKA AND BROOKS ARENT SPONSORING KENYANS AND EHTIOPIANS YOU ABSOLUTE BASKET CASE.

When will people realise that the reason why so many athletes run fast in Nike is because Nike has a near monopoly on African talent? They’re the only ones to offer contracts to Africans on the roads, and do it so that they can have a monopoly on those shots of a lead pack of elites dressed in the same uniform wearing the same shoes so hobbyjoggers like you all can think they’re magic and fork out $300 for them. My brain hurts reading thread after thread of this garbage.

Exactly right. Nike can afford to sponsor any promising young African runner, and lock him/her into a years-long contract. They won’t all be superstars, but Nike is assured of a lead pack of runners in each Major garbed entirely in their product. All the big spending hobbyjoggers see that and assume that the pros know what’s best and are choosing Nike over other brands because it gives them an advantage.

Meanwhile, it costs Nike next to nothing. They can sponsor a dozen elite marathoners for the cost of one mediocre soccer, football, or basketball player. Very smart play on Nikes part.

Following this logic every performance in every sport since the 1940's is null and void !