Official Pikes Peak Discussion Thread

Great post, wanted to add that another Pueblo Jemez runner, Steve Gachupin, won from 66-71 and held the course record for a while at 3:39. Supposedly he ran at least one in Converse hi-tops

Ivanka wrote:

Sad. wrote:

Over/under on him getting chicked?

Also, one of his recent videos he threw his sport under the bus and sounded like a whiner. Sad.

He may, bu he only sure bet is how insecure you are with yourself.

I'd say you have to be pretty insecure to make baseless drug accusations against your competitors.

Good point on the first runner!

When I ran I had just exited the trees (going up) when Ricardo appeared (going down) - almost mythical in appearance as he floated so effortlessly I didn't even hear his feet touching the ground as he danced by - a sight to behold! Since I was above treeline with good sightlines it was easy to avoid any hindrances, but I can imagine how things could get trickier down below treeline in the switchbacks.

Another native runner wrote:

Great post, wanted to add that another Pueblo Jemez runner, Steve Gachupin, won from 66-71 and held the course record for a while at 3:39. Supposedly he ran at least one in Converse hi-tops

Awesome - thanks for posting! So much rich history to the race it's hard to keep track of it all. Converse hi-tops FTW!!!

Everybody is talking about Kilian, but it is much more likely that Maude Mathys will break the women's record, which was set last year by Megan Kimmel. Mathys also broke the Sierre-Zinal record last week. Kimmel has been hurt this summer and likely won't run. The Pikes Peak Marathon is kind of crazy and anything could happen. The women's field is particularly deep and Mathys, Silvia Rampazzo of Italy, Meg Mackenzie of South Africa, Yngvild Kasperson of Norway and Holly Page of the UK are my favorites. Where are the USA women in the most competitive trail race in America?

My $0.02 as a local mid-pack runner.... (Sorry for the long post.)

Running up PP once will give you enough info to pace yourself well going up during the race. You need to go down multiple times to really nail things. Its not that it is technical in the European sense of the term, but it is just tricky enough that running fast can be tough, (and dangerous to the ankles and forehead).

I saw Joe Gray and a few out-of-towners training the top few miles last Friday. 3-2-1s are a tradition for success on this course. (I knew they were out-of-towners or foreign because they didn't say hello -- multiple times.) I also spotted a 400 pound bear below the A-Frames, but I doubt she'll be a problem this weekend.

Its going to be scorching hot this weekend, (for Colorado). High 80s, which shouldn't affect most of the race but the last few miles of switchback (the Ws) really cook in the sun. In a close race, that heat and hydration issues could be the deciding factors.

A few people have mentioned that passing all the uphillers on the way down can be a factor. Yes it can, but most everyone is pretty good about stepping aside. Plus, this year everyone knows the course record is at stake and that there are more top runners than usual. (We should really give the top 4 or 5 runners bear bells for the way down so we all hear them.) Also, the race director and the city have been doing a good job of letting hikers and Incliners know to stay off Barr Trail for the weekend; we'll see.

I agree with other commenters that the trail seems to be getting looser above treeline (top 3 miles). Hard to say how much time that may cost. I don't agree that the bottom has gotten any more technical in recent years. (I don't go back as far as the Matt Carpenter days, but I have trouble understanding how the lower trail could have changed much, other than that 1 massive boulder that blocked the trail a few years ago.) The middle sections have a few run-off issues, but nothing that would affect your pace, (as long as you notice the 3 foot drop near the 4 mile trail marker.)

MC owned that trail in so many ways. I'm not saying the 3:16 CR will never fall, but I don't see it happening this weekend. (Unless somebody tells me that KJ has been secretly training on Barr in between his other Spring/Summer events.)

Personally, I'm just hoping to summit before the leaders hit the tape.

geargrinder wrote:

Everybody is talking about Kilian, but it is much more likely that Maude Mathys will break the women's record, which was set last year by Megan Kimmel. Mathys also broke the Sierre-Zinal record last week. Kimmel has been hurt this summer and likely won't run. The Pikes Peak Marathon is kind of crazy and anything could happen. The women's field is particularly deep and Mathys, Silvia Rampazzo of Italy, Meg Mackenzie of South Africa, Yngvild Kasperson of Norway and Holly Page of the UK are my favorites. Where are the USA women in the most competitive trail race in America?

iRunFar seems to think Megan Kimmel is running PPM again this year. Not sure how she's doing, or how she compares to to Mathys.

There also appears to be a great women's field for the PPA, though it is getting less attention this year because of the GTS.

Sad. wrote:

Ivanka wrote:

He may, bu he only sure bet is how insecure you are with yourself.

I'd say you have to be pretty insecure to make baseless drug accusations against your competitors.

Sage has been very consistent in arguing for better drug testing in MUT running. (I did not see the specific video you mention; did he call out a specific individual?)

S. Canaday wrote: Is the course different/slower nowadays?

Matt's record is basically impossible IMO. Joe Gray was in great shape when he did a flat-out Ascent win in 2:05 and it still wasn't really that close to Matt's halfway spit! Now Matt's Leadville record is very beatable I think (and his time at MT. WA was as well obviously).

One issue with The Barr Trail is that the downhill is not very steep or technical for a mountain goat like Kilian. Kilian shines at steeper and more technical trails. You're also passing the entire field head on...which can be a bit scary.

Excellent thread so far. Have only been able to skim is so far, but thanks for reminding what LR could be.

Indeed, I messaged PP on facebook after they posted that Kilian was returning to attack the course record after first attempting in 2012. I pointed out to them that he wasn't chasing the CR that year. They agreed (didn't edit their post though) and pointed out that near the summit, the race route differs a bit (supposedly steeper and more technical >> slower) from the run Matt Carpenter ran in his course record. So yes, the CR is technically impossible. We know that Kilian's intentions and motivations vary between chasing CRs and wins, so it will be interesting to see what a) he wants to do and b) what sort of competition he'll face and what that may push him to do.

Time and again I'm amazed that pre-race discussions involving Kilian are essentially a matter of how well he'll do. His level of predictable success is extraordinary, and his range over distance, and terrain (other than flat and road, the latter of which is basically PP, a steep dirt road to the summit) is second to none. As far as altitude as someone mentioned, Kilian hasn't in the past typically had issues with altitude at the levels of PP.

Smb wrote:

iRunFar seems to think Megan Kimmel is running PPM again this year. Not sure how she's doing, or how she compares to to Mathys.

There also appears to be a great women's field for the PPA, though it is getting less attention this year because of the GTS.

There is a fairly good women's field in the Ascent, with record holder Kim Dobson looking really strong this year challenged by Anna Mae Flynn and relative newcomer Ashley Brasovan (former Footlocker champ turned mountain crusher). There will be lots of fireworks at the front. But unless I am missing somebody, it doesn't go a lot deeper. Those 3 will make for the best women's Ascent race since 2014 when it was the WMRA championship.

Wait to see on Kimmel. There was so much hype about her running I think there may be some hesitancy to announce a scratch. It would be awesome if she ran. One top-rated American does not make up for everyone else avoiding the competition. Or are they just so focused on ultras that they didn't even know about it?

One good thing about the Golden Trail Series is they are trying to bring attention to the most iconic races and attract the best athletes. They are pretty transparent about how to get a free trip to Europe for the next GTS event. Sage has caught on, why haven't others?

geargrinder wrote:

One good thing about the Golden Trail Series is they are trying to bring attention to the most iconic races and attract the best athletes. They are pretty transparent about how to get a free trip to Europe for the next GTS event. Sage has caught on, why haven't others?

I wonder if pushing PPM by one week (since it used to coincide with Leadville) has pushed it too close to UTMB for others. I did hear that Courtney Dauwalter is planning to run UTMB, though I'm not sure she would have done both even with more spread since she seems to focus on ultras now.

I don't know a whole lot about GTS, but I know there isn't much prize money at PPM. I think the top 5 all get $1,250. (The PPA gives slightly more for the winner, but less for the other podium places.)

"...and pointed out that near the summit, the race route differs a bit (supposedly steeper and more technical >> slower) from the run Matt Carpenter ran in his course record. So yes, the CR is technically impossible."

I've never seen any details or specifics surrounding this - such as what year the route changed, in what manner, and/or how much of an effect this estimated to have. However, it is directly noted on their website that the start/finish locations were changed in 1976 (adding 1.1 miles), which was the last time any course changes were made. So I guess I'm confused why no mention of this later change - Matt himself recalculated the estimated finish times for all the results 1975 and prior, as comparison to the officially recorded results, available right on the website.

Pretty sure everyone here would be interested in learning more specifics.

More great insights, thanks!

OK I'm totally in the dark on this one, but has Mathy's run PP (or anything high-altitude) before? If not it could be a factor for her - even if she flew over right after S-Z to acclimate.

As a side note - I have paced several fairly well accomplished Europeans at Hardrock who had trained extensively in the Alps, but still found the altitude a little tougher than expected.

Mark my words, Killian won’t break 3:25-3:26:30 which is a long Hall from the record. His prior 3:40 was way off the record and even with the advantage of being in better shape and coming of Sierre-Zinal I still don’t see more than a 15 min increase this year. Killian is just good at very steep gradient stuff!

Smb wrote:

geargrinder wrote:

One good thing about the Golden Trail Series is they are trying to bring attention to the most iconic races and attract the best athletes. They are pretty transparent about how to get a free trip to Europe for the next GTS event. Sage has caught on, why haven't others?

I wonder if pushing PPM by one week (since it used to coincide with Leadville) has pushed it too close to UTMB for others. I did hear that Courtney Dauwalter is planning to run UTMB, though I'm not sure she would have done both even with more spread since she seems to focus on ultras now.

It's kind of hard to say how much overlap there is between these two events to begin with. I know Kilian, Sage, Karl (Speedgoat) and I'm sure several others on both the men's/women's side have done both, but I don't recall many if any doing so in the same year even when there was a 2 week split. Likewise, there doesn't appear to be a significant overlap between Sierre-Zinal and UTMB either, and that's a 3 week split.

geargrinder wrote:

The weather factor isn't mentioned enough here. Last year, when both men's and women's downhill records were set, there was significant rain the night before, which meant that the trail was in perfect shape. How much moisture is on the trail has more to do with how difficult it is than any deterioration that might have occurred since 93 (not much).

When it has been dry the trail gets much looser and gravelly and that slows both up and down times.

We haven't had much rain the past few weeks, the lower section below the Incline return was super dusty this morning. Friend of mine who summited this past weekend said there is a lot of loose stuff above treeline, when he was running it wasn't bad but when he slowed to power-hike his feet were constantly slipping out. Shouldn't be a factor for the elites but I hope they get a little rain this week to make the course less treacherous.

geargrinder wrote: One thing to remember with Carpenter's record is that he basically ran it solo. Nobody near him. What might he have done if pushed?

I used to wonder the same about Yiannis Kouros - imagine if he any serious level of competition. I think for his serious records (24, 48 hr, Syndey to Melbourne - I don't include his 6 day) he was better able to time trial than he would have if pushed in a race where race dynamics can affect the race differently. It's often why some loaded fields produce slower times (see the Rio mens 1500). It's hard to say without speaking to him about it, that Carpenter would / could have gone much faster if he had stronger competitors.

Mark my words wrote:

Mark my words, Killian won’t break 3:25-3:26:30 which is a long Hall from the record. His prior 3:40 was way off the record and even with the advantage of being in better shape and coming of Sierre-Zinal I still don’t see more than a 15 min increase this year. Killian is just good at very steep gradient stuff!

This was my opinion prior to S-Z this year, but things changed. Not just the time he ran to take down that record, but the style in which he ran it, which you can probably only really understand by watching the video (available on YT). If you or others on here haven't, it's highly recommended. Bottom line - unlike previous years where he was often gapped on the long grinding climb, only to reel everyone back in on the descent, the instant they stepped off the pavement onto the climb this year he hit the gas and dropped everyone like a bad habit, even the climbing specialist/"drug cheat" Mamu who had typically led the climb in the past. After the initial steep climb, the course starts rolling (still generally climbing with some flat sections mingled in), and his stride/flow looked significantly more like elite-level runner than in the past - clearly he has been training more like a traditional runner this summer. For the first time I've ever seen, it looked like he'd fit right in on an elite road 10k without looking like the odd man out. And for final perspective, his split at the highpoint (close to the same overall vert as PP) was only 40 seconds off Jono Wyatt's record split - and in addition to Jono's impressive road and track PR's (re: 13:35, 27:50's, 2:13:00, etc...), he was also known as the best climber in history (far better than Carpenter at "standard" elevations, but unknown up high since he never ran any).

It is for these reasons that many on this thread think the PPM CR could be in play for him this year. We'll soon find out.