Knut Kvalheim : Can you please describe your training with Susanne Wigene, 14.53 5000m runner from Norway?

KnutK: Thank you for great reply and an open mind!

By sophisticated I mean that the program as I see it from the outside, is not very individually adjusted, all the runners do the same training. It also do not include strenght training or much drills/flexibility training.

Could this be the reason for all the injuries?

Let me say that this is not critism, just some thoughts from the outside.

Obviously your program is working very well for most atheletes, but by making it a bit more "sophisticated" with strenght training and streching could might avoid the injuries? What do you think!?

Ok I see what you mean by sophistication now.

As to beeing individualised you are partly right, but I think it looks a bit different from inside the group.

During the basic period the program is the same for all. However there are differences in how it is executed. To what level the execution is individualised depend on the experience I have with eacjh runner. Also the morning run is not on the general program but something agreed on with each runner.

Transiton and competition programs are individualised to a much greater degree. They do all follow the same basic ideas however.

Yes increased use of strength training could be helpful to prevent injuries. One aspect not mentioned in my description if Susanne's training is that she has done toeraises. This is very simple but also very effective iin strengthening the calfe muscles.

One reason no regular strength training is not in any way included in the program is that this is a group of unprofessional athlete all with limited time. I simply happen to believe that the most effective in terms of time way for any runner to train is running. This beliefe again comes from my experience in the 70s and influence from Lydiard.

In relasion to stretching I never have been able to make up my mind. I have known many good runners who have coverd really high volumes who never stretched. I believe Marius is one of those at least that was reprted in Norwegian newspapers at one time. On the other hand it seems reasonable to believe that some more stretching than my runners do would be of benefit to the runner.

KnutK: Thanks for quick reply!

Its very interesting to read about how one of the fastest white runners train.

I believe Craig Mottram trains much in the same way, heavy mileage, lots of long runs just below anaerob thresold and little speedwork in the winter.

Can anyone explain more about the training of Mottram?

Though little speed traning, the Aussie has lots of speed ref. his 3.48 mile last week!

after all that unimportant stuff, the real question:why for heavens sake does she wear that headband?

It almost seems like you're the proponent of highly specialized training with as little time-spending supplementary activities as possible. "Why stretching, the racehorse doesn't stretch before the race and look how fast it can run", or something along those lines said G.Pirie... "dogs don't lift weights, nor do gymnastics, still are much better runners than we humans are" said V.Kuts to E.Zatopek, when he asked him, whether he supplements his running with exercises as he did.

Regardless, I have another question for Mr. Kvalheim:

You had suggested that one of the reasons of frequent injuries in your group of runners is the swithing of shoes- what kind of shoes are your runners using- is is the same type? Why would you think that your decision of not using spikes in workouts would lead to injuries? When do they happen- at races? Then it might be the lack of adaptation, otherwise I couldn't find the reason.

She eats normal food. Neither Susanne nor I are great believers in taking suplements if it is not proven that you need them due to some defficiency.

Yes, Susanne is fortunate in having a very strong health.

She got some help from physical therapists to loosen up stiff muscles during the last part of the winter. She has also gone to a more or less regular check up during the summer to avoid her muscles from getting stiff again.

I am a great fan of the finish tradition of saunas and enjoy this very much. But this is to me simple a matter if relaxing and enjoying life and nothing I tell my runners to do. If Susanne takes a sauna regulary or every now and then I do not know. As for ice-bath this she might have done that on occasions but it is certainly no big part of anything and nothing I have told her to do.

KnutK

As a runner I always liked to run but never liked those other activities. Maybe I just rationalize for that.

But yes do I believe that running is the best training for runners. I do however know that at some point the law of diminishing returns strikes, but do not se any sign of my runners being there.

The shoe type they run in varies. Normally I do not interfere with this outside tell them to get stable shoes and to avoid soft shoes, where you tend to "float" in a sense.

What I have noticed is that many of the injuries have come after people have run a session on the track wearing marathon type shoes. I do not know the reason for this but typically it is the lower area of the calf that gets injured. If I should have a theory it would be that the track and the shoe together becomes to unstable so the burden top stabilize fall on the legs.

You mention the possibility of lack of adaption. Usually the transformation from flats to spikes is done very slow in my programs. This has also been the case now, but some of the workout we moved to the track and they were run in flats. No matter what the physiological reason is this is a part of the program that is revised next year do to injuries.

KnutK

Knut your training seems to be close to what the norwegian federation recommends on their site, do you support their model? I know Frank Evertsen said it was a bad plan.

"Arbeidskrav på 5000m i friidrett"

http://www.friidrett.no/t2.aspx?p=49924

As you know by my description we do not follow this, but that does not make it bad plan.

The plan has some good elements: Lots of running and lots of basic aerobic running.

In certain aspect part of the plan simple things seem to have been made a little difficult, but then again I do not believe that this is intended as a plan runners should folloew in detail. To me this is more a description of what you should emphasis and some illustrations of ways to do it.

I do not know why Frank Evretsen said it is a bad plan so that is up to him to answer.

KnutK

Thank you very much sir, for answering my questions.

Yet, as I think more and more about the program, the questions arise, excuse me for that.

Since your programme is high mileage oriented with decent amount of intensive running, I suspect that there are times of extreme tiredness:

What do you do, if the particular session cannot be completed (subjective sensation) on a given day? Do you relocate it to next day(s) or do you continue in the programme and just skip it? For example: Monday's session of 8x1500m w/1min recovery becomes a real struggle just after 2 or 3 repeats, the athlete cannot hold the pace, or is running much slower than in previous weeks, due to the tiredness of...say too fast of a long run from the day before.

The reason I am asking is, that I am coaching several female sub and elite runners in my country and from time to time they give up in their workouts, run sub par or just cannot hold the day-prescribed pace. I tend to ask them to complete the workout no matter what, but it sometimes does more psycholgical damage than just cutting the session short.

That's what happen when you go hard when just supposed to go easy on your easy days. You should always feel fresh for you main-workout or the programme is wrong. Tiredness will only be felt after the hard-workouts. End the work-out if it becomes a struggle and just easy jogging, skip the work-out and do it next week.

Damn good thread....keep it going you wild vikings!!!

Saw her and Marius run at Heusden. I was very impressed with her performance and I think she will improve in the coming years.

Best of luck to the Norwegian runners and I will tell you that your country is high on my list of places of visit.

Mr. Kvalheim.

First of all thank you for a very good thread, and sharing all this info.

I am curious, what do you mean by hard runs being basically "all out" Does this mean all out as if it was a race, or just controlled hard, as Mr. Bakken and some other people are educating?

Thanks

Bump. It's too good to get this thread lost...

I do not have a standard answer to this type of situation. I try to find out why the runner is tiered. Is it the running, some outside source or maybe a cold r some other illness is developing.

In some cases I suggest running the session much slower but not pushing it, but in most cases I say "forget it, go for a jogg and tell me how you feel tomorrow". Then we take it from there. I never try to force a situation like you describe. I keep elling them that one individual session might ruin there running for a long time, but ut is never descisive in a positive way. If you want results in running it is the long time work that counts.

KnutK

It is hard running but not a competition. They run them in groups of 2-3 athletes and I tell them to work together and help each other to get the session done. I also try to switch people around when possible so the ame runner is not allways hestronges in a group. I tell them not to let it develop into a race. Sometime this happens. I often "punish" them for this with easier days than planned following the session.

These sessions is one of the things we individulise. Susanne runs these sessions very hard. She is probably the one runner in our group who run these hardest. If a runner easily develop colds for example he or she will be told not to run these session to hard during the winter or in any cold weather.

I do not how this is in relation to Marius' training. I do not know his training in any detail so I'm not in a position to discuss that in any depth.

KnutK

KnutK wrote:

the other is that for the first time in my coaching career I have asked people to run sessions on the track without spikes.

This would be okay if light and thin racing shoes, but wide and build up training shoes would have too much rubber to grab the track and not allow rotation of the knees.

Hence running intensely on a track with training shoes could be a major cause of such injuries. I have long been convinced that was a problem of Joan Benoit's, as she often ran her mile repeats on a track then was injured.

I was fortunate to watch Susanne run (so well) in Ostrava. It was so good to see a European up there mixing it with the African girls (including leading at one point).

Knut, you seem to have your head screwed on properly. Stick to your "simple" (ha!) training and continue to avoid unneccessary "sophistication". Nothing beats good simple consistent aerobic training.

Good luck to Susanne in Helsinki.

Thanks for the answers, so i guess some of the hard sessions can be pretty hard, also producing some lactate, at least at the end.

Another question.

Susanne Average around 170-175k per week during basic period.

When i sum up her milage during the summer program, it seems its around 140-160, depending on competitions I guess. Would this be correct, that basically a lot of the milage is 140+ even during summer?

Thanks