NWARunner wrote:
That's on interesting take on this. Pretty much all of my runs are above 8 min pace, probably closer to the 8:15 - 8:30 pace. I will say though, I can definitely go sub 10:27.
Unattached Boi is wrong.
Your mileage is fine. You can definitely break 10 for the 3200. Keep us posted.
Unattached Boi wrote:
Lydiard Cerutty wrote:
Easy runs should be done by feel.
https://twitter.com/nickwillis/status/1118869944022773760?s=20Yes, by feel. And if that feel is over 8 min pace, you aren’t in shape for sub 10.
Let me guess, you ran D1 back in ‘76 and now you are winning your local 5k’s in 19:30. Get your facts straight before you try to tell me what’s up smh
If you actually do some good workouts, some days 8 minute pace or slower is your easy pace. Your workouts are what matter, not the pace of your easy runs.
Please read:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2006/09/wejo-speaks-why-i-sucked-in-college/https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=152890wejo wrote:
confused wrote:
I heard in another post that Wejo runs the majority of his milage at about 7 min pace.... is this true? Wejo can you comment? Other than tempo's and workouts, do you ever go faster?
Personally I am a guy who has never broken 33:00 but I run all of my miles, sub 6:30.
Is there something you know that we don't????
In college I swore I ran everything under 6:30 or better, I ran 30:19 for 10k.
Now I say I run 7 minute pace but in reality it's probably slower and much much slower in the morning (ask my roommate who is a 16:30 5ker) (maybe 7:30, who knows, I run for time not distance) , I run 28:06.
But I probably run twice as much as most of you. The key to running fast is relaxation, I definitely learn that with my easy runs. And if I feel good, I might run quicker on some runs or at the end of runs (but it will be the same effort) but I never worry about the pace of my easy runs and don't like running with most people in Flagstaff cause they'll try and run too fast.
The pace of your easy runs isn't going to make you a better runner. Focus first on your workouts and doing more mileage. More mileage at an easy pace won't lead to as much injury I believe.
But Please, continue being a slave to the watch and hammer your easy days. And wonder why you underperform on race day.
Dear Lydiard Boy,
If you are going so far into the well on workouts that all you can manage is 8 minute pace, you will underperform come race day. Easy days should be by feel but if they feel is 8 minute pace you are either a) not in shape aerobically to run fast or b) going too hard on workout day.
Sincerely,
Common Sense
Unattached Boi wrote:
Dear Lydiard Boy,
If you are going so far into the well on workouts that all you can manage is 8 minute pace, you will underperform come race day. Easy days should be by feel but if they feel is 8 minute pace you are either a) not in shape aerobically to run fast or b) going too hard on workout day.
Sincerely,
Common Sense
Cool story bro, facts of the matter is your easy pace and how you do on race days does not matter. Look at Taoufik Makhloufi, a 3:28 1500m runner often doing his easy days at a 10 minute mile jog.
https://www.scullytherapyclinic.com/single-post/2017/02/18/Taoufik-Makhloufi-TrainingHard days hard:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=wH0IV2EF1-ERun fast:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbe_QoArIbEWin easy:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry8GWJMpIVQ&feature=youtu.beBob Washington wrote:
Yeah, you can go 10 minute pace on easy days if you dope to win. He does win easy. Doping does that to a person
Big facts.
And easy days don’t matter??? Easy days are a majority of your aerobic stimulus. They definitely matter unless you’re racing 400 or shorter
Bob Washington wrote:
Lydiard Cerutty wrote:
Cool story bro, facts of the matter is your easy pace and how you do on race days does not matter. Look at Taoufik Makhloufi, a 3:28 1500m runner often doing his easy days at a 10 minute mile jog.
https://www.scullytherapyclinic.com/single-post/2017/02/18/Taoufik-Makhloufi-TrainingHard days hard:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=wH0IV2EF1-ERun fast:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbe_QoArIbEWin easy:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry8GWJMpIVQ&feature=youtu.beYeah, you can go 10 minute pace on easy days if you dope to win. He does win easy. Doping does that to a person
Cam Levins easy pace is usually around a 7:00-7:30 minute pace, his two mile PB is 8:14(yet you guys think some one running a minute and a half slower for two miles should be doing his easy pace faster than a 8:14 2 miler?). Also ran 27:07 for 10000m and 2:09 for the marathon.
Physically you can probably break 10. If there's competition I say you do it. Running solo might be tough. Either way, I don't think there'd be anything wrong with starting to cut your mileage a bit as you ramp up for the postseason. Your base is going to be huge, and I'm presuming your season will conclude in May.
NWARunner wrote:
TL;DR at bottom
PRs: 55.8, 2:08.9, 4:35, 10:43
400- I may be faster, that was from last year at Districts and I have yet to run a 400 split fresh like I did then.
800- Have yet to run it fresh as well, always after a 1600 (PR is from 30 min after a 4:49 on Wednesday).
1600- Last Saturday, got boxed in pretty hard the first two laps and ran 70-69-69-66.
3200- Have yet to race it on fresh legs, ran a 10:51 (w/ 15 mph winds) w/ a 61 last lap to win a league meet though after closing a 4:51 in 63 about 45 min before it.
Mileage: Typically about 70, switches between 65 and 80 (only above 75 once, hit 82) though. Last 8 weeks have averaged exactly 70 mpw.
I think I could be in better shape than 4:35, as I PRd by 6 seconds in the first meet and 7 in the 2nd Invite I ran it at :
(PR before this race was 4:48 in 71-71-71-73 at Districts last year)
4:42(Invite) 69-68-69-73
4:51(League Meet)78-76-73-63 (Had to go all out to win it)
4:35(Invite)70-69-69-66
4:49(League Meet)76-70-75-66 (only race I haven't closed all out in yet, just trying to win it)
I haven't done any "Predictor" workouts, just been doing this the past few weeks:
Mon - Long Run
Wed - League Meet
Sat - Invitational
The rest of the days between are just easy 45 - 75 min w/ strides sometimes. I also double everyday w/ an easy 2 miler.
Before the league meets started I was doing 5-6x1000m @ CV + 4x200 quick (3:30-40 and 31-34) everything with 90 sec 200m jog rec.
The race I'm aiming for is a week from this Saturday and won't be tapered for, but none of my races have been so far. I know I'm in pretty good shape and I want to at least run sub 10 because my mileage and mile time say I should be bare minimum right there, but I wanna know what you guys think I can run to see if my goal is reasonable or not. If you want more info, I can give it (ie mileage by week, winter tempo workouts, last year mileage/PRs, etc).
Thanks if you read all of that! Any (educated) guess is much appreciated!
Tl;DR
I've PRd by 13 sec in the 1600 in 4 weeks to 4:35, I've averaged 70 mpw for 8 weeks with 2 races a week and just a long run (no workouts the last few weeks). What can I run in the 3200 in 1 week?
Unattached Boi wrote:
easy days don’t matter??? Easy days are a majority of your aerobic stimulus. They definitely matter unless you’re racing 400 or shorter
Yes, easy days are very important, for endurance and recovery, which is why they should be easy.
Unattached Boi wrote:
Bob Washington wrote:
Yeah, you can go 10 minute pace on easy days if you dope to win. He does win easy. Doping does that to a person
Big facts.
And easy days don’t matter??? Easy days are a majority of your aerobic stimulus. They definitely matter unless you’re racing 400 or shorter
I said easy pace doesn't matter, not easy days don't matter(there's a difference). I want to add a exception to that, the pace does matter if you are hammering your easy days too hard. And are not allowing for your body to recover from the hard workouts. Look at the Japanese, producing a dozen or more sub 2:10 marathoners a year. Yet most of them do their easy days super easy. Often around a 8 minute mile pace. I guess you should go over to Japan and tell all their coaches they're doing it wrong ....
Lydiard Cerutty wrote:
Unattached Boi wrote:
Big facts.
And easy days don’t matter??? Easy days are a majority of your aerobic stimulus. They definitely matter unless you’re racing 400 or shorter
I said easy pace doesn't matter, not easy days don't matter(there's a difference). I want to add a exception to that, the pace does matter if you are hammering your easy days too hard. And are not allowing for your body to recover from the hard workouts. Look at the Japanese, producing a dozen or more sub 2:10 marathoners a year. Yet most of them do their easy days super easy. Often around a 8 minute mile pace. I guess you should go over to Japan and tell all their coaches they're doing it wrong ....
Because training for a marathon is the same as training for a 3200?? And about Cam Levins... he’s doing like 200 mpw, which gives you the aerobic development in place of the faster easy run pace
First grade training lesson 101 wrote:
Unattached Boi wrote:
easy days don’t matter??? Easy days are a majority of your aerobic stimulus. They definitely matter unless you’re racing 400 or shorter
Yes, easy days are very important, for endurance and recovery, which is why they should be easy.
Maybe Alberto Salazar needs a first grade lesson in training as well?
https://www.sweatelite.co/run-easy-run-faster-salazar/Unattached Boi wrote:
Took you a day to respond?
rojo wrote:
[quote]Alan's take wrote:
He really seems to stress that runners tend to run too slow on their easy days. He gives the exampe of how his wife improved significantly when she forcibly raised her easy pace from 7:30s to 6:30s. I find that it's better to let your body dictate.Thoughts?
When I moved to flagstaff in early 2000 - just months before the birth of LetsRun.com to train with Weldon for the 2000 Trials, I couldn't believe how slow he was running.
I had just run a marathon (well I guess he had as well as he paced me for the whole thing) but when I started back up, I was like "this pace is a joke. He's trying to make the Olympics. I can't even make the Trials and he's running this slow"
I called up John Kellogg and said, "Do you want to me secretely push the pace on our easy days like at least 15 seconds a mile, he won't know I'm doing it?"
John said, "We'll worry about the easy day pace last. It's the least important thing."
We never did increase it. That's the he went from 29:49 in 10k to
28:27.
In college he ran his easy days at 6:30 pace and couldn't break 30. As a pro, he ran way more, lived at altitude and ran way slower (definitely over 7) and nearly broke 28:00.
Now. Saying that it's important to realize he was RUNNING A LOT.
Shayne Culpepper was really a 1500-3k runner who moved up to the 5k. I doubt most female runners in that category are running much.
It's the principal that applies.
You want to generally be adding a stimulus each year. For most people, it's mileage. When you are in HS and in college, it's generally easy to add 10 mpw each year. 30 as a frosh, 40 as soph, etc. Only as a pro or if you are a mid-d guy/gal are you often maxed out on that front.
If you aren't running very much, you should run it faster. When I was at Cornell and some freshmen would say to me, "Why don't we run 615 pace on our easy days. That's what I did in HS." I'd reply. "You were running only 40 mpwl. You'd better run it fast."
So there you have it. If you are running a lot or increasing your mileage, i wouldn't worry about it. You likely won't be able to handle a faster pace. If you aren't running a lot or are more of a 5k person - maybe it makes morse sense (i hated the intenstiy of the 5k - such a grind - maybe grinding out easy days is equivalent?).
That being said, when Nick WIllis ran with my Cornell boys one day he said to me as we were jogging at like 7:30 pace, "Do you guys always run this pace." I thought he was complaining it was so slow. I was about to start making some excuse about how we only had one meet left, etc as it was very slow that day and late in the season but before he could he added, "Thank goodness. Finally a team I can run with. I can't ever run with the Michigan guys - they just go way too fast (this was when he was a pro)."
I replied, "Don't they know you are an Olymipan? Why wouldn't they jsut slow down and run your pace?" He just sort of smiled.
So it depends on a lot of factors. But I wouldn't change what you are doing if you are a long distance male based on what some mid-d female did.
While the first person I ever coached to USAs was a woman, I haven't coached a lot of them. I do think they can run faster and probably should as scientifically according to John Kellogg they dont' benefit from high mileage as much as a man.
Unattached Boi wrote:
Lydiard Cerutty wrote:
I said easy pace doesn't matter, not easy days don't matter(there's a difference). I want to add a exception to that, the pace does matter if you are hammering your easy days too hard. And are not allowing for your body to recover from the hard workouts. Look at the Japanese, producing a dozen or more sub 2:10 marathoners a year. Yet most of them do their easy days super easy. Often around a 8 minute mile pace. I guess you should go over to Japan and tell all their coaches they're doing it wrong ....
Because training for a marathon is the same as training for a 3200?? And about Cam Levins... he’s doing like 200 mpw, which gives you the aerobic development in place of the faster easy run pace
He started doing high mileage in college, when his main focus was the 5k/10k. To your second point, the kid is running 70 MPW. Maybe that's why he does his easy runs slower than the average high school kids who does their easy days too hard and is only running 30 MPW.