fast_af wrote:
No, you need to recover between workouts. And one easy day is more than enough after most workouts. If you do workouts 2 days in a row second one will be on tired lags and you might not be able to keep the pace.
But here is the kicker: don't due it by prescribed pace, but rather, by Heart Rate (and maybe even lactate meter, if available)!
In a 2012 interview (in Norwegian), he stresses that volume is important (95mpw) is important
in contrast to "some claims that high intensity interval training can be replace it).
This is what I meant by the remark that they don't take 4*4 seriously.
bengel wrote:
In a 2012 interview (in Norwegian), he stresses that volume is important (95mpw) is important
in contrast to "some claims that high intensity interval training can be replace it).
This is what I meant by the remark that they don't take 4*4 seriously.
But again, you may be getting lost in the definition of what exactly is "high intensity", when the term gets conflated with "Lactate Threshold" training, because historically in the United States, Lactate Threshold training is around the classic 4mmol point, which is typically around 91-92% HRmax. However, these guys are doing base 'Lactate Threshold repetitions' well below that intensity, if they are keeping their Lactate below 3mmol!
This is a major point of confusion on this topic, evidence by the many questions regarding how they can do multiple lactate threshold reps and sessions per day, and on successive days! The answer is because the intensity of those reps is lower than what is generally assumed to be Lactate Threshold Pace!
The 4x4min Protocol according to 'The Norwegian Method' can accommodate a tremendous range of paces (lactate values), since it prescribes anywhere from 85-95% HRmax. In addition, the relatively long 3minute period of recovery, according to the protocol, further modulates rise in lactate.
I tend to disagree. If you run 4*4 slow enough, you can do 8-12 of them as one probably should.
If it is more of a classic V02 max session, prescribing this 4-5 times a week, tells me that they have little experience in coaching. They claim they have been working with elite footballers (but refused to drop names in a newspaper interview, to avoid "fuzz"), but I am not aware of any elite
runners who have successfully followed their recommendations.
Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:
bengel wrote:
In a 2012 interview (in Norwegian), he stresses that volume is important (95mpw) is important
in contrast to "some claims that high intensity interval training can be replace it).
This is what I meant by the remark that they don't take 4*4 seriously.
But again, you may be getting lost in the definition of what exactly is "high intensity", when the term gets conflated with "Lactate Threshold" training, because historically in the United States, Lactate Threshold training is around the classic 4mmol point, which is typically around 91-92% HRmax. However, these guys are doing base 'Lactate Threshold repetitions' well below that intensity, if they are keeping their Lactate below 3mmol!
This is a major point of confusion on this topic, evidence by the many questions regarding how they can do multiple lactate threshold reps and sessions per day, and on successive days! The answer is because the intensity of those reps is lower than what is generally assumed to be Lactate Threshold Pace!
The caveat here is that 4 mmol is just an average across the entire population. The average is that 4 mmol is the threshold, and runners can hold that pace for around 1 hour.
In reality, sprinters are more fast-twitch, and produce a lot higher lactate values. 4 mmol might still be a jog for a sprinter, but he can reach 20+ mmol in a hard effort.
Top endurance runners (let's say 1500-Marathon) have a very high % of slow-twitch muscle fibers. They produce less lactate across the border, and their max lactate is substantially lower.
3 mmol for Ingebrigtsen might as well be the pace that he can sustain just 30 mins, or an hour, and not a pace that he could sustain for 3-4 hours like the average runner could. So for him, that's still roughly his threshold, and he is doing the repeats at the correct intensity for him.
If a 400/800 guy would do repeats at 3 mmol lactate, that's certainly too small, since he achieves 3 mmol at a pace that is still just easy/moderate for him, whereas for Jakob and other slow-twitchers it's already a strong effort.
Pace-wise, the Ingebrigtsen's seem to do a lot of their repeats around 10k-HM pace, which is in line with "CV training" and also the paces that runners have been training for decades, without labeling them "threshold" or "CV" etc..
gold-panter wrote:
"Do you think they do this for 3 weeks and than do a recovery week and then repeat or just the same week over and over again?"
-------------------
They have no recovery week but remember they are having long recovery runs (at easy or moderate pace) between the harder treshold repetitions days.
"But again, you may be getting lost in the definition of what exactly is "high intensity", when the term gets conflated with "Lactate Threshold" training, because historically in the United States, Lactate Threshold training is around the classic 4mmol point, which is typically around 91-92% HRmax. However, these guys are doing base 'Lactate Threshold repetitions' well below that intensity, if they are keeping their Lactate below 3mmol!
This is a major point of confusion on this topic, evidence by the many questions regarding how they can do multiple lactate threshold reps and sessions per day, and on successive days! The answer is because the intensity of those reps is lower than what is generally assumed to be Lactate Threshold Pace!"
----------------
It IS not high intensity training. It is long term aerobic training. The treshold repetitions (fore example 12X 1000m) are run at lactate number 3.1-3.2, With 2 sessions per day 3 days in the week.
But they are ALWAYS having 1 day with recovery runs in between.
And yes it is a little confusing that it is call TRESHOLD training since they are running well under the treshold (to anaerobic exercise).
Their only anaerobic training in the base training period is the hill sprints.
I wonder what they change during Build phase.
Maybe remove one TH day and replace it with some more 1500m pace stuff or VO2max?
Will they do a 4-6week build and then move into 1-2week race phase and then back to build?
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:
But again, you may be getting lost in the definition of what exactly is "high intensity", when the term gets conflated with "Lactate Threshold" training, because historically in the United States, Lactate Threshold training is around the classic 4mmol point, which is typically around 91-92% HRmax. However, these guys are doing base 'Lactate Threshold repetitions' well below that intensity, if they are keeping their Lactate below 3mmol!
This is a major point of confusion on this topic, evidence by the many questions regarding how they can do multiple lactate threshold reps and sessions per day, and on successive days! The answer is because the intensity of those reps is lower than what is generally assumed to be Lactate Threshold Pace!
The caveat here is that 4 mmol is just an average across the entire population. The average is that 4 mmol is the threshold, and runners can hold that pace for around 1 hour.
In reality, sprinters are more fast-twitch, and produce a lot higher lactate values. 4 mmol might still be a jog for a sprinter, but he can reach 20+ mmol in a hard effort.
Top endurance runners (let's say 1500-Marathon) have a very high % of slow-twitch muscle fibers. They produce less lactate across the border, and their max lactate is substantially lower.
3 mmol for Ingebrigtsen might as well be the pace that he can sustain just 30 mins, or an hour, and not a pace that he could sustain for 3-4 hours like the average runner could. So for him, that's still roughly his threshold, and he is doing the repeats at the correct intensity for him.
If a 400/800 guy would do repeats at 3 mmol lactate, that's certainly too small, since he achieves 3 mmol at a pace that is still just easy/moderate for him, whereas for Jakob and other slow-twitchers it's already a strong effort.
Pace-wise, the Ingebrigtsen's seem to do a lot of their repeats around 10k-HM pace, which is in line with "CV training" and also the paces that runners have been training for decades, without labeling them "threshold" or "CV" etc..
But the interesting thing here is that they do about double the volume of "CV" reps than Tinman prescribes. That makes me think that CV pace is faster, otherwise Ingebrigtsen can handle double the work of Tinmans runners which I find unlikely.
agreed, The father stresses that the intensity can't be too high, otherwise they get overtrained.
GrapeSon wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
The caveat here is that 4 mmol is just an average across the entire population. The average is that 4 mmol is the threshold, and runners can hold that pace for around 1 hour.
In reality, sprinters are more fast-twitch, and produce a lot higher lactate values. 4 mmol might still be a jog for a sprinter, but he can reach 20+ mmol in a hard effort.
Top endurance runners (let's say 1500-Marathon) have a very high % of slow-twitch muscle fibers. They produce less lactate across the border, and their max lactate is substantially lower.
3 mmol for Ingebrigtsen might as well be the pace that he can sustain just 30 mins, or an hour, and not a pace that he could sustain for 3-4 hours like the average runner could. So for him, that's still roughly his threshold, and he is doing the repeats at the correct intensity for him.
If a 400/800 guy would do repeats at 3 mmol lactate, that's certainly too small, since he achieves 3 mmol at a pace that is still just easy/moderate for him, whereas for Jakob and other slow-twitchers it's already a strong effort.
Pace-wise, the Ingebrigtsen's seem to do a lot of their repeats around 10k-HM pace, which is in line with "CV training" and also the paces that runners have been training for decades, without labeling them "threshold" or "CV" etc..
But the interesting thing here is that they do about double the volume of "CV" reps than Tinman prescribes. That makes me think that CV pace is faster, otherwise Ingebrigtsen can handle double the work of Tinmans runners which I find unlikely.
LateRunnerPhil is incorrect in some pieces of his post.
They’re training at threshold, not CV. CV would produce higher levels of lactate. They measure their blood most training sessions and their threshold pace/HR/blood values have been measured in a lab. They are intentionally training at intensities below lactate threshold. The times seem fast but keep in mind a) they’re world class athletes and b) they e been training this zone for years. How many other athletes in the world train their threshold and sub-threshold like this? Very, very few.
GrapeSon wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
The caveat here is that 4 mmol is just an average across the entire population. The average is that 4 mmol is the threshold, and runners can hold that pace for around 1 hour.
In reality, sprinters are more fast-twitch, and produce a lot higher lactate values. 4 mmol might still be a jog for a sprinter, but he can reach 20+ mmol in a hard effort.
Top endurance runners (let's say 1500-Marathon) have a very high % of slow-twitch muscle fibers. They produce less lactate across the border, and their max lactate is substantially lower.
3 mmol for Ingebrigtsen might as well be the pace that he can sustain just 30 mins, or an hour, and not a pace that he could sustain for 3-4 hours like the average runner could. So for him, that's still roughly his threshold, and he is doing the repeats at the correct intensity for him.
If a 400/800 guy would do repeats at 3 mmol lactate, that's certainly too small, since he achieves 3 mmol at a pace that is still just easy/moderate for him, whereas for Jakob and other slow-twitchers it's already a strong effort.
Pace-wise, the Ingebrigtsen's seem to do a lot of their repeats around 10k-HM pace, which is in line with "CV training" and also the paces that runners have been training for decades, without labeling them "threshold" or "CV" etc..
But the interesting thing here is that they do about double the volume of "CV" reps than Tinman prescribes. That makes me think that CV pace is faster, otherwise Ingebrigtsen can handle double the work of Tinmans runners which I find unlikely.
Actually, Tinman recently started introducing "double workouts" for his elite runners. It's not that the Ingebrigtsens are handling double the work of Tinmans, it's more like that Tinman undertrained his elite runners with being too cautious in training for a very long time. He was essentially using the same philosophy that worked well for him on HS kids and masters runners on his elite runners which simply wasn't enough when everyone else is doing double threshold sessions and more.
Think about paces like this - Jakob's CV pace is 2:45, and his half marathon pace is 2:53 or something. Do you think he is doing 400s in 66 or 69? Or doing k's in 2:45 or 2:53? There you got your answer on which pace he is running. With the rest periods, he is keeping lactate low, below the threshold but he is not running the pace he would in a 1 hour threshold run, he is running the repeats at faster paces (that would be more mmol if he would actually run them for 10k, but he does 1k - rest - 1k - rest - 1k .... and therefore keeps the lactate low despite running at "CV pace").
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
GrapeSon wrote:
But the interesting thing here is that they do about double the volume of "CV" reps than Tinman prescribes. That makes me think that CV pace is faster, otherwise Ingebrigtsen can handle double the work of Tinmans runners which I find unlikely.
Actually, Tinman recently started introducing "double workouts" for his elite runners. It's not that the Ingebrigtsens are handling double the work of Tinmans, it's more like that Tinman undertrained his elite runners with being too cautious in training for a very long time. He was essentially using the same philosophy that worked well for him on HS kids and masters runners on his elite runners which simply wasn't enough when everyone else is doing double threshold sessions and more.
Think about paces like this - Jakob's CV pace is 2:45, and his half marathon pace is 2:53 or something. Do you think he is doing 400s in 66 or 69? Or doing k's in 2:45 or 2:53? There you got your answer on which pace he is running. With the rest periods, he is keeping lactate low, below the threshold but he is not running the pace he would in a 1 hour threshold run, he is running the repeats at faster paces (that would be more mmol if he would actually run them for 10k, but he does 1k - rest - 1k - rest - 1k .... and therefore keeps the lactate low despite running at "CV pace").
This is also incorrect. Jakob's CV pace is not 2:45. His threshold pace is 2:45, as they have calculated in the lab and measured with his blood. 2:45 is 27:30 for 10,000m which is roughly CV. Jakob is 3:28/7:27/13:02 guy. He certainly can run faster than 27:30.
Jakob is possibly a sub 12:50 guy in the 5000m already. He hasn´t run a 5000m on the track since 2019 so his 13.02 is outdated.
And he can possibly run at least a 26:40 in the 10000m.
GrapeSon wrote:
"I wonder what they change during Build phase.
Maybe remove one TH day and replace it with some more 1500m pace stuff or VO2max?
Will they do a 4-6week build and then move into 1-2week race phase and then back to build?"
----------------
I must admit I don´t know so much about the phases after the base training period.
But I do know that they - when there is a competition break in the season - to some extend go back to running rather big volumes. More than 100km per week.
In season four of Team Ingebrigtsen, which was really, really short, something like two or three episodes, they flashed to workout cards for Jakob, Henrik recovering from toe surgery, and Ingrid. This was at the Sandnes Hallen indoor track.
Henrik: 4x400 in 61; 3 minutes; 4x400 in 60; 3 minutes; 4x400 in 59, on 90 seconds rest, 3 minutes between sets.
Filip and Jakob: 6x300 (90 seconds)-41.5; 3 minutes: 5x300-40.5 (90 seconds); 3 minutes;
6x200 (200 jog)-26.5.
These were at 55.3 400m pace, then 54 400m pace, then 53.
Ingrid and Bjorg: 4x200m (200j)-32; 3 minutes; 4x200 (200j)-31; 3 minutes; 4x200 (200j)-30.
Ingrid joined in with Henrik toward the end and did pretty well.
At 40:46 the cards are and then the workout:
Can someone please help me understand one thing:
We know that they do a lot of training to develop the aerobic system (TH runs) and only hill reps who really target the anaerobic system.(1x per week)
They do this structure for many years with maybe only 2x Threshold sessions per week when they were younger.
In order to archive a VO2max beyond 80 ml/kg/min dont you need to do more anaerobic work per week?
Not necessarily. Everyone responds differently to various training stimuli, and many endurance athletes with a primarily slow-twitch background can optimize their VO2 Max by doing almost all threshold and sub-threshold with just a pinch of anaerobic training.
Is it just me or is that a super impressive workout from Ingrid?
A quick google search did not bring up any recent race results. I think she is 15 now...is she close to national class now?
Thanks I understand, so correct me if I am wrong but there are two ways to improve VO2max! Either by high anaerobic work or by doing huge volume of aerobic sub threshold work. It might take longer to improve VO2MAX but you are also doing big aerobic work at the same time.
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