Road Racing and Training Thread Week Ending 12/30/2018

LancRunner wrote:

I'm curious, you mention 3 distinct ways you have, in the past, incorporated them into your training.

1. As a primary workout

2. Supplemental to a workout

3. In place of strides

Not that I've had the success of Stat but Ill tackle this as well.

1. Primary workout 1-2/Season (Reps = ~2-6min, ~3mile total)

2. Added on to the end of workouts miscellaneously (Reps ~60-120s, 4x300hills after some track repeats or tempo)

3. In place of strides 1/week (Reps = ~10s, 8 reps)

if you want to look on my Strava, Jan 1 2017 is a hill we did repeats on at track practice (so near your work)

and Jan 16 2018 is the last hill workout i did (0.6mi reps)

There is a good article in RunningTimes that I can dig up if desired.

-RS

Sub 6 - yes it was Ryan, glad you got to share some mile together

I did read this one a while back, and now that you mentioned an article, dug this back up...

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20787712/mastering-hill-workouts/

It seems like a good summary of 5 different ways to incorporate hills and the physiological benefit re: muscle fibers...

I'm going to dig more into this as well and see how I really want to do this as time goes.

My hill repeats as a high schooler were about 100 yards with 125 feet of climb, so about a 43 percent grade. I ran those for strength. All out. The last couple years, I did VO2max repeats up a 1.8% grade -- 3 minutes up, jog back down. I would prefer something a bit steeper, but all the roads are very flat around here.

I was thinking that some hill reps would be good coming back from this injury I have as its less impact going up and can walk back down and not pound it. Thoughts?

Your rational is correct, go for it

-RS

Allen1959 wrote:

My hill repeats as a high schooler were about 100 yards with 125 feet of climb, so about a 43 percent grade. I ran those for strength. All out. The last couple years, I did VO2max repeats up a 1.8% grade -- 3 minutes up, jog back down. I would prefer something a bit steeper, but all the roads are very flat around here.

43% doesn’t seem right. I trained at a cycling velodrome a few times and I couldn’t even stand up in the part where the grade was 50%.

If you’re right though, that must’ve been insanely hard.

The catch is that while uphills do put less of a pounding on your body overall, they can put more stress on your achilles/calf. Not saying don't do them, but make sure you're sensible about it.

Regards,

GFMAH's right achilles

DietBacon wrote:

43% doesn’t seem right. I trained at a cycling velodrome a few times and I couldn’t even stand up in the part where the grade was 50%.

Yeah, typo. But close to what I wrote. Meant to type 42, rounding up from 41.6% grade, given the 125 ft rise divided by the 300 ft.

I looked up the US Geological Survey map to verify those figures. That was from the base to the apex of the drumlin. Three sides were very steep, and the long dimension of the drumlin tapered gradually to the surrounding grade. Hang-gliders launched from the opposite steep side, into the prevailing wind, and had some remarkable flights, considering the hill is less than a 40 meters high.

Drumlins are interesting topographical features, if you're unfamiliar with them. Remnants of glaciation, although the exact mechanism for their formation is debated.

And, yeah, that was a tough workout. Weather it was a "good" workout or not, I don't know!

... Weather it was a "good" workout or not, I don't know!

*that should be "Whether" ... I need to fire my editor. I also noticed "effect" rather than "affect" in an earlier post. Aargh.

I don't have the right intellectual skill set for hard science, but I do find geology fascinating, particularly plate tectonics (and related orogenic activity) and the impact of glaciers and on the landscape. The entirety of Long Island in downstate NY is also the result of glacial activity. Basically, everything that got scraped off of the surface of the land during the last glaciation period was left in a big pile in the Atlantic when the glaciers receded, leaving what is now Long Island.

Allen, those are as steep as a steep ski slope (usually black diamond) and going up those is more of a scramble than a run.

I've done hill work of some sort at some time of the year for most of my running.

Most commonly -

-early season tempo/threshold efforts (reps of 3-7 minutes, and sometimes 20 or 30 if the hill/mountain is big enough), maybe 3-5 times in that phaes

-then shift to more 5K to 10K effort with reps of 2-4 minutes, for a few weeks

-short hill sprints, not unlike what tinman and magill suggest

Last last year I incorporated a 6 week block of mountain running in the early summer. I wanted to do a couple of well known (around here) mountain ascents just for fun/bucket list events. With alternative motives to give my legs a mid-year break from running fast on the flat, and to incorporate a phase of altitude running at least 3-4 times a week (lots of runs at 8000 to 13,000 feet). These were usually long ascents at a moderate effort (nothing is easy that high up), not reps. Then I completely shifted gears and focused on road mile and 5K for about a month to get ready for the USATF masters races in August.

1. As a primary workout - I have done 20x 300m hills during xc season before. I believe the general idea was have something long enough that it had a significant aerobic/strength component while still touching some pretty decent speed for xc season. Personally, I'm actually not a huge fan of this approach. I think a long tempo or fartlek over a hilly route is a more beneficial approach for races of this distance because of the work/rest ratio in an interval style hill workout. However, people much smarter than I like the hill workout so there is that. For track I would typically do less reps but a bit faster. These workouts would take the place of an interval workout on the track. I think the benefit largely has to do with working on running economy and decreasing the stress on your body.

2. Supplemental to a workout - I'm a big fan of doing some quicker stuff at the end of a longer tempo or fartlek. I think it trains the body and mind to close races hard and well. It always gave me the confidence that no matter how bad I feel, I have a good last 200-400 in me. It also helps work on changing gears which is especially valuable in close and/or tactical races. Hills are a good way to do this, and I think the general idea behind hills as opposed to flat strides has to do with stress on the body. You should be able to get the same benefit as a flat 100 without putting the same strain on your ligaments etc.

3. In place of strides - Once again, I think the main two reasons cited for this is reducing the strain on your body and improving running economy. Personally, I like mixing up how I do my strides anyway just so I'm not going through the exact same stimulus twice a week. I'm not smart enough to tell you exactly why, but I've seen a bigger benefit when I change up what I do for supplemental speedwork. So a typical rotation, in a perfect world, might look something like this:

8x 100-150m hills

8x 30 on, 60 off in the last 2 miles of a run

8x 100m strides

2x 90, 60, 30 on, equal off in the last 2 miles of a run.

3 sets of turf strides (2x length, 2x width, 2x diagonal in each set. Millersville's IM fields are great for this)

8x 200 on, 200 off

4-5x 300 on, 500 off

2-4x Pre 800's (alternating 200 splits of 30,40,30,40)

So this would get me through 8 weeks assuming I follow my perfect world schedule of doing these M-Th and have access to a track or hill every time I need one. They're all very similar stimuli, and I think provide a very similar benefit, but changing things up like this seems to keep me from just getting really good at 100 meter hills and I like variety anyway.

I will pile on with more advice from a Lydiard perspective.

His runners ran over hills all the time it’s fair to say, even during base. But more importantly he set aside an entire 4-6 week block of concentrated hill work after the base phase which was used not so much for speed development but as he put it for leg strength and resistance work. Plyometric exercises such such as springing and bounding up the hill for 200m at a time, downhill striding, and sprinting (wind sprints) on the flats was the protocol. The circuit in Auckland was a 2 mile squarish block, about 800m on each side. with a 10% grade. You would do plyometrics for 200m then run 400m then plyometrics again for 200m.

For Lydiard, hill work was a transition to more formalized speed work.

drumlin, Well make that 2 new words for me this week. Keep it coming folks.

Enjoying the hill discussion. I've been surveying the area for a convenient hill for hill sprints. Found one just long enough with an average 5% grade. I think I would prefer something a bit steeper, but I'll settle on this one due to location and street lights. Maybe I'll get to try it out in a week or two.

Drumlin I’ve heard. Comes from the good gaelic. Also heard words like blinken/blinky growing up. To describe milk that was a bit sour but not to sour to drink. Etc

Always amazes me how words from so many generations before can survive in a family.

Smoove wrote:

We've run into each other a few times at race's. I'm a couple of inches taller and within 5 pounds of Jeremy's weight. There is a 0% chance that I would fight that guy sober.

LOL, I may be Filipino but I'm no Manny Pacquiao haha

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

Jeremy R wrote:

Still running like SHYTE!

2018 Performances:

PR'd every distance!

Yeah....I think you're being too hard on yourself. All new PRs in the first full calendar year with 2 kids (am I remembering that correctly?) is a feat. Maybe some recency bias with the late year cramping? Anyway - I think I've heard the mantra "no complaining about PRs" many times around these parts...

Yup, you're right, I think I said that.. so I should follow through!

Smoove wrote:

I see lots of internal conflict there Jeremy!

Based on seeing you, I think 13x would be tough for you to get down to, particularly if you start lifting more again. I wouldn't worry about the weight, but would focus on healthful foods and being lean.

This may be true, but I still have extra fat, maybe I can bring that % down...

Drive-by posting, here.

For LancRunner: Listen to the Running Rogue Podcast episode 106 (the newest). It's an interview with Brogan Austin of CIM fame. At about 38:40, he starts to talk about his hill training. I think you (all) will enjoy it.