Nick Symmonds ran his 3:34 1500m on pure 800m training

Sand Dunes wrote:

YMMV wrote:

Interesting that Peter Snell had an 800 PB 1.5 seconds slower, and a 1500 PB three seconds slower, off of much different training.

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He did that on a grass track, so take off at least a second per lap. If Peter Snell and Herb Elliott ran on the Monaco track they could have easily ran sub 3:30 for 1500m. And, Snell could have easily ran a sub 1:42 on the Monaco track.

You overestimate the difference between grass and synthetic.

Snell said at the time that a well kept grass track was faster than dirt/cinders.

Cinder tracks were believed to be about 0.5 - 0.7 secs a lap slower than synthetic. Grass would be no more than half a second a lap slower.

Snell could probably have run 1:43 low on a synthetic track, perhaps just under 1:43 on the Monaco track of today.

His fastest 440 was a 47.9 in a relay, which is equal to 48.6 for an open 440, 48.3 for 400m, and perhaps 47.7/47.8 on synthetic. That isn’t fast enough leg speed to run sub 1:42 imo.

For 1500m, his mile WR suggests 3:36/3:37 ability. On synthetic that’s possibly worth 3:34. I don’t think he ran enough 1500’s to reach potential, so maybe he could have run 3:32 in a paced Monaco run, but claiming sub 3:30 is stretching it a bit I think.

YMMV wrote:

Interesting that Peter Snell had an 800 PB 1.5 seconds slower, and a 1500 PB three seconds slower, off of much different training.

Peter Elliott had an almost identical 800 PB as Symmonds, but was 3:32. Not sure about his training.

By the time Elliott was running his best over 1500m he was more focused on that event than the 800m. He first emerged on the scene in 82 as a pure 800 guy, and then dabbled with 1500 in 84, but didn’t really become an 8/15 runner until 88.

He wasn’t doing pure 800 training when he ran 3:32.

zxcvzxcv wrote:

It has to be said that in Snell's 880y and 800m world record race in February 1962, on a dirt track, he said at the time that the pacer, who went out in 51 seconds, almost killed the wr attempt because it was far too fast. So, I don't know whether he could have held on to a 49-50 second opening even if it were on a far superior surface. Ryun could have, however. He had the basic speed to do it, and the endurance to hold on.

Snell’s 800/880yd WR was run on grass not dirt. He is on record as stating in an interview at the time that a well kept grass track was faster than any dirt one!

There is some research carried out by Epstein that claims a dirt track from the 50’s was 1.5% slower per lap than a modern (2010’s) synthetic one.

For an 800m in 1:44.3, that works out at 0.78 secs per lap. And Snell claims grass was faster than dirt, so 0.5 secs per lap would be a reasonable estimate in comparing Snell’s run to modern synthetic.

I agree with a lot of this.

Re the quote from Coe saying 1 second a lap, he is also on film (The Supermilers, 1984) as stating that it was. ‘About 0.5 sec a lap,” when being asked by Roger Bannister, when both were walking around the dirt track at Iffley Road. He then made the caveat that, “Of course on a day like today ( wet and windy), then considerably more”.

Worth noting that Willis could never touch Snell's 800 time despite advances in everything. Likely Willis also had the opportunity to run on grass too but never ran Snell like times on them either.

physics defiant wrote:

Worth noting that Willis could never touch Snell's 800 time despite advances in everything. Likely Willis also had the opportunity to run on grass too but never ran Snell like times on them either.

Willis is a pure miler who may run the odd 800 for tuning. Snell was predominantly an 800 guy to start with and evolved into one of the greatest 800/1500 runners ever! So I wouldn’t expect Willis to be faster than Snell, and I wouldn’t expect Snell to approach Willis’s 1500 time.

jamin wrote:

Running up that hill wrote:

Rudisha believes he can run around 3.36

That would really bolster my "speed is king" theory, because Rudisha only ran 20mpw

Renato claims that Rudisha does way more miles than that.

fair enough

Deanouk wrote:

physics defiant wrote:

Worth noting that Willis could never touch Snell's 800 time despite advances in everything. Likely Willis also had the opportunity to run on grass too but never ran Snell like times on them either.

Willis is a pure miler who may run the odd 800 for tuning. Snell was predominantly an 800 guy to start with and evolved into one of the greatest 800/1500 runners ever! So I wouldn’t expect Willis to be faster than Snell, and I wouldn’t expect Snell to approach Willis’s 1500 time.

If Snell is one of the best ever it seems reasonable that he could approach the time of Willis. Certainly Willis will never be viewed as one of the best of all time, despite his aptitude for consistently picking up the scraps through the years.

Subway Surfers wrote:

jamin wrote:

That would really bolster my "speed is king" theory, because Rudisha only ran 20mpw

Renato claims that Rudisha does way more miles than that.

There are plenty of sources that claim rudisha does a good bit more than 20mpw. Don’t know where Jamin got that idea

Jamin's a joke that's why

Data to negate wrote:

Unfounded claims are not "wrong", unless you can provide data indicating the suggested conversions are inaccurate.

Burden of proof disagrees. Default accuracy is zero. Default truthfulness is not true. But this is just semantics and opinion so I’m not sure what your point is.

Symmonds actually ran 3:56.72 for the mile

soupyguy wrote:

Fact checking wrote:

No specific-to-the-second figure is “generally accepted” without proof. Show me the experimental evidence supporting this figure or it’s as good as nothing. What’s so hard to understand about that?

Smell vs Symmonds

800 - 1:44.3h vs 1:42.95

1000 - 2:16.6h vs 2:16.35

1500 - 3:37.6h vs 3:34.55

Mile - 3:54.03 vs 3:59.68

1/4

Again, source for any of this? You can’t just give pulled-out-of-nowhere figures and expect me to give them any credibility. That’s as good as taking wild guesses unless you have actual experimental data supporting the numbers.

Symmonds actually ran 3:56.72 for the mile

Snell's 3:37.6h was en route to the mile, athletes go through 1500m at about 1% slower than their 1500m best eg El Guerrouj went through 1500m in 3:28 when he did 3:43 and Morceli went through 1500m in 3:29 when he did 3:44, so although Snell tied up badly (it was December) he was likely in 3:35 dirt/grass/cinders shape. Snell may have only raced the 1000m (??) As a gimmick. Snell would've been quick in that race with Rudisha in it.

YMMV wrote:

Interesting that Peter Snell had an 800 PB 1.5 seconds slower, and a 1500 PB three seconds slower, off of much different training.

Peter Elliott had an almost identical 800 PB as Symmonds, but was 3:32. Not sure about his training.

I think Peter Elliott had largely moved up to the 1500m when he ran his 800m pb (1:42), which is why a lot of people expected him to break the 1500/Mile world records that summer (nobody had ever ran a 1:42 that early in a season).