All-time Time Machine Championship Results - Men's 800m

Sancreed wrote:

formerbosox9yo wrote:

Obviously Coe wins if they are time machined from the 84 olympics. The point is to time machine them from different points in their careers, and determine what would most likely happen.

And obviously you have picked the worst version of Coe imaginable if you think this is the likely result. Pointless and arbitrary and illogical.

If you are going to "machine them" in from anywhere, then it should be at the absolute peak of their respective careers or not at all.

Correct, it assumes they are time machined in from their peaks (which still might not result in PRs). There are a lot of other factors to consider - rounds, weather, field, drugs, pressure, lanes, etc. Even at peak shape it's still hard to PR. That would be literally a once in a lifetime occurance and we all know we dont always PR even when we are in our best shape.

formerbosox9yo wrote:

Sancreed wrote:

And obviously you have picked the worst version of Coe imaginable if you think this is the likely result. Pointless and arbitrary and illogical.

If you are going to "machine them" in from anywhere, then it should be at the absolute peak of their respective careers or not at all.

Correct, it assumes they are time machined in from their peaks (which still might not result in PRs). There are a lot of other factors to consider - rounds, weather, field, drugs, pressure, lanes, etc. Even at peak shape it's still hard to PR. That would be literally a once in a lifetime occurance and we all know we dont always PR even when we are in our best shape.

So basically if medals won, world records, pbs are not relevant t the outcome of this race, your choice is based on no quantifiable criteria other than who you want to finish 1st, 2nd, etc?

A peak Coe, say from when winning the 81 World Cup in Rome, would beat Gray every time. I would actually go as far as to say he could beat anyone in that kind of form. But based on actual accomplishments, e.g. medals, times, records, etc, Rudisha is the greatest 800m runner of all time. He does have a weakness though if the first lap isn’t that fast and it comes down to a kick in the last 100m. When Kipketer, Coe or indeed Snell from an earlier era, were at their very peak, they were bullet proof and could win however the race was run IMO.

Why are the times so slow.

You have no justification for this nonsense. Every post on this 'all time champs' so far has been meaningless nonsense. Are you taking the athletes to compete on a cinder track or something??

Rudisha ran 1:40.9 by himself, after rounds. Amos ran 1:41.7 in the 2012 final and ran 1:42.1 just the other day! Seb Coe ran 1:41.7 mostly by himself, and 1:42.33 totally on his own.

What is Kaki doing there?!

What is this crap??!!

formerbosox9yo wrote:

If all athletes in history took a time machine to compete in one championship track meet, these would be the results (limited to 3 athletes per country):

Men's 800m Final:

1 David Rudisha KEN 1:41.17

2 Wilson Kipketer DEN 1:41.61

3 Joaquim Cruz BRA 1:42.31

4 Nijel Amos BOT 1:42.41

5 Wilfred Bungei KEN 1:42.78

6 Johnny Gray USA 1:42.82

7 Sebastian Coe GBR 1:42.83

8 Abubaker Kaki SUD 1:42.84

This is the dumbest thread for a while. You're saying peak Coe of 81 would finish nearly 2 seconds behind Rudisha, behind Johnny Gray, and over half a second behind Cruz? Cruz was at his peak in LA 84, Coe was 90% at his 800m peak, and he still finished only 0.6 behind Cruz despite running wide and being elbowed by Earl Jones which must have cost him at least a couple of tenths.

What do you consider peak Amos? His 1:41 in London 2012 or his recent 1:42 at Monaco? Pretty sure 81 Coe would have ran faster than that in London or Monaco.

And how come 'peak' Rudisha runs slower than his world record yet with Kipketer and Cruz chasing him down the home straight? Does he not run from the front as in London, even though he is in the same shape? Who leads them through in the bell and what are the splits? Tell us exactly how this hypothetical race plays out or it's complete garbage. And where is Ovett or Juantoreno in this race, btw? Or for that matter Snell?

Coe was pretty much invincible in 81. One month after running his 1:41 800m WR he attempted the 1500 WR in Stockholm and was almost certainly deliberately sabotaged by the pacemaker James Robinson who led him through the first lap in 52 seconds, which was WR pace for the 1000m! Coe basically solo ran the rest of the race off that crazy 52 second first lap and still broke the WR in 3:31! It would probably have taken Rudisha at his very best or an EPO'd up Moroccan to challenge him in the form he displayed at both 800 and 1500 that summer.

formerbosox9yo wrote:

Sanjay Gupta wrote:

Rudy front-ran his 1:40.91 from gun to tape. He would do at least that if not faster.

How can you possibly justify putting Seb Coe below Gray?

How can we be sure he'd put together his absolute best performance in this meet. That only happens once in a lifetime. How can we be sure Gray doesn't get out first and him and Rudisha bump a lot. How do we know the conditions will be as fast. Low 1:41 is REALLY fast when all is considered.

Gray has more experience than Coe running toward the back of the pack at the end of races. Head to head Gray beats Coe in this scenario. Plus Coe is more of a 1-3 time wonder. I'm not banking on him getting a 1:41 when all is considered.

If you don't even know what the conditions are supposed to be in your made up champs, then how the hell are you assigning times to the athletes down the the hundredth??

It could be a storm that day according to you, in which case 1:41 is unthinkable.

Or 40 Celcius.

What a load of crap. State the conditions and track the athletes are running on and from which point in their career you are plucking them.

If you don't know what shape they are in, and don't know what the conditions are, how the hell are you deciding who wins let alone what time??

Coevett wrote:

One month after running his 1:41 800m WR he attempted the 1500 WR in Stockholm and was almost certainly deliberately sabotaged by the pacemaker James Robinson who led him through the first lap in 52 seconds, which was WR pace for the 1000m! Coe basically solo ran the rest of the race off that crazy 52 second first lap and still broke the WR in 3:31!

WHAT? Another Coe world record which no one has known so far?

it has to be said wrote:

Coevett wrote:

One month after running his 1:41 800m WR he attempted the 1500 WR in Stockholm and was almost certainly deliberately sabotaged by the pacemaker James Robinson who led him through the first lap in 52 seconds, which was WR pace for the 1000m! Coe basically solo ran the rest of the race off that crazy 52 second first lap and still broke the WR in 3:31!

WHAT? Another Coe world record which no one has known so far?

Ya he didn't break the WR Mr Coevett. The WR was 3:31.4

Very poor knowledge for such an uber super fan who lived through the era...

The conditions aren't one specific set of conditions, but adjusting the liklihood of results for all possible and liklihood of all conditions. I would only expect a 1:40 in very good conditions, but much slower in worse conditions. Some place in the middle is the over/under for the expected winning time not knowing what the specific conditions would be, and that winning time is 1:41.17 by Rudisha.

Coe only broke 1:43 TWICE. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he can do it a third time in a crowded field for how well he performed overall and the overall conditions and era he performed in. Making the final 8 of ALL-TIME is quite a huge achievement. This is the quite elite field, and even finishing 7th Coe would have to have one of his best races ever!

formerbosox9yo wrote:

Coe only broke 1:43 TWICE. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he can do it a third time in a crowded field for how well he performed overall and the overall conditions and era he performed in. Making the final 8 of ALL-TIME is quite a huge achievement. This is the quite elite field, and even finishing 7th Coe would have to have one of his best races ever!

You said you were bringing them on a time machine in their prime. Not their 2nd best or 3rd best prime. On Seb Coe's peak day he ran 1:41 and therefore he would do it again in your scenario.

How is Peter Snell not in the conversation?

Hardloper wrote:

formerbosox9yo wrote:

Coe only broke 1:43 TWICE. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he can do it a third time in a crowded field for how well he performed overall and the overall conditions and era he performed in. Making the final 8 of ALL-TIME is quite a huge achievement. This is the quite elite field, and even finishing 7th Coe would have to have one of his best races ever!

You said you were bringing them on a time machine in their prime. Not their 2nd best or 3rd best prime. On Seb Coe's peak day he ran 1:41 and therefore he would do it again in your scenario.

Yes in their prime, but even in ones prime people dont always run prs when you factor in lane draw, weather, bumping, pace, crowds, stomach issues, nerves, drug mix, etc etc. it's quite the step to guarantee rudisha can run 1:40 not being certain about all that or that come could even break 1:43 not being certain about all of that.

Sand Dunes wrote:

How is Peter Snell not in the conversation?

he could be, but only 8 make the finals in the 800m. that's quite an elite list!

formerbosox9yo wrote:

Sand Dunes wrote:

How is Peter Snell not in the conversation?

he could be, but only 8 make the finals in the 800m. that's quite an elite list!

Really? A top 8 "elite list" with Johnny Gray being listed as a championship runner who would beat Coe? Johnny Gray who in four Olympics finished: 7th, 5th, 3rd and 7th Vs Coe's two Olympics and two Silvers? As well as being nearly a second slower over the distance.

Your replies, show that you are only trolling anyway, so I won't even go there with Bungei and Kaki.

Idiotic nonsense. Rudisha ran 1:41.09 1:41.01 and 1:40.9 all on different days and different conditions.

One would assume that when you out the best that have ever existed in a race, particularly the sprints, they would run faster than their even listed PBs, as history has shown.

However, in all your threads about this you have consistently given the athletes slower times.

Despite MANY of the greats in all events hit their best times in major champs. There is a long list, including many athletes you've posted about. How can one not think that a race between prime WVN and prime MJ would not have a great chance of a 42.x clocking.

Or Rudisha Vs Kipketer not lead to a 1:40.

Your posts show you don't watch athletics.

You're a dumba$$. He ran the equivalent of sub 1:43 for the 1000m twice. He was running 800m, 1000m, 1500m, Mile, unlike people like Rudisha or even Grey who were pretty much only racing the 800m. You're saying the very same Coe that ran 1:41.73 on a rubbish track that night in 81 put in a time machine and lined up with 7 other all time greats, presumably with Rudisha setting the pace on a Mondo track, would barely break 1:43 and finish 7th?? Well at least you allowed a white guy into the final I guess. I was roasted a little while back for suggesting that five white guys (including Jakob winning the 1500/5000) would be my picks for gold at Tokyo if Kenya weren't there, yet you're ignoring guys like Snell, Ovett, Juantorena and completely dissing Coe - almost including him as the token 'wrong physiology' non-African.

it has to be said wrote:

Coevett wrote:

One month after running his 1:41 800m WR he attempted the 1500 WR in Stockholm and was almost certainly deliberately sabotaged by the pacemaker James Robinson who led him through the first lap in 52 seconds, which was WR pace for the 1000m! Coe basically solo ran the rest of the race off that crazy 52 second first lap and still broke the WR in 3:31!

WHAT? Another Coe world record which no one has known so far?

He clearly knows from his posts that it wasn’t a WR and probably meant to say a ‘near world record’. And it was. only 0.59 secs outside, and definitely a much greater performance than the then WR.

The 1000 isnt the 800. We all know Coe had the ability to break 1:43, and 1:42, but the question is how he would do against the all time best. He has only broken 1:43 TWICE (maybe only once if he is time traveling from his peak)- he just doesn't have the same amount of experience as some of the other finalist in this sort of heat. The fact he made the finals and had a chance to win and is one of the top 7 800m runners of ALL TIME should be commended. that says in a lot of years he'd be the absolute best in the world. sometimes he would win this race, in some circumstances he' get last, but most often had get 7th. Remember, everything is taken into account - speed, strength, endurance, start, experience, strategy, mentality, drug use (particularly in early 80s), weather, track, era, heart, and BALLS. this is such an elite final and breaking 1:43 in that group is quite amazing.

Snell, Ovett, and Juantorena obviously wouldn’t belong. He is wrong about Coe though.