Results shoe Joe was 11th, Megan was 90th.
My mistake, she was 6th overall for women.
Kenyans 3rd and 12th. Has a Kenyan ever won this before?
GOAT territory
Big mountain, big trouble wrote:
Kenyans 3rd and 12th. Has a Kenyan ever won this before?
Yes, Lucy Wambui Murigi.
Max King 14th.
Not on the men's side, I hate to say it but usually only B or C level Kenyans gravitate towards the mountain races. I think with specific training, and with the financial incentive, most 13 low types could probably win these races.
That being said, the record is 2:29 by Jonathan Wyatt, a 13:27/27:56, Kilian was only 2 minutes off that, and I highly doubt he could run anywhere near those times on a track. You can definitely have a knack for more uphill running than someone faster on a road or track.
*jornet
"Not on the men's side, I hate to say it but usually only B or C level Kenyans gravitate towards the mountain races. I think with specific training, and with the financial incentive, most 13 low types could probably win these races.
That being said, the record is 2:29 by Jonathan Wyatt, a 13:27/27:56, Kilian was only 2 minutes off that, and I highly doubt he could run anywhere near those times on a track. You can definitely have a knack for more uphill running than someone faster on a road or track."
No, you don't hate to say it. You love to repeat this worn out mantra and sound like a close-minded road running dude not being able to see/appreciate other ways of running. Go get a life.
Geez, I struck a nerve clearly.
Yeah I do kinda hate it cause I enjoy MUT running.
It's getting faster, but give some low 27 minute 10k guys 1 to 2 years training for mountains, I bet you records will fall. Keep in mind, I'm referring to sub ultra distances.
There was a strong correlation between half marathon prs and performances at the US Mt running Champs. The top guys can run 62-63 minutes. Obviously you need specialized training, ie Ben Bruce. Give a 60 minute guy 6 months to a year and see what happens.
Anything 50k or over, yeah it's not necessarily about who is fastest at the half.
If you prefer anecdotal stuff, practically all the local trail races with any prize reward around where I live are won by people that focus on road races.
"Hey man,
I respect Matt...I really do. Again this thread isn't about Matt (but since you want to go there:
I do think his Leadville record is very good...and I also think it is very beatable.
His Pikes record is much, much better and less likely to be broken...like ever IMO.
2:14 marathoner Max King struggled at Leadville. In reality, 2:30ish marathon guys like Ian Sharman and Anton Krupicka have actually been a lot more consistent at Leadville than most...with Krupicka running within 32-min of Matt's record.
I'd actually think someone like Zach would have a good shot at the Leadville record...I also think Zach would probably be about a 2:22-2:25 marathoner if he ever tried one. But flat roads and tracks are not his forte....he is a very good climber and he has very strong "mountain legs"...he is amazing in the hills at long races...
So again, in a ultra-mountain race, it isn't about flat-out track/road 10km-marathon speed...sometimes the 2:30 guy beats the 2:14 guy.
I think Matt is still a beast. I actually won the Pikes Peak Ascent in 2:10 two years ago, and I was 9-minute off his ascent split that he recorded during his marathon record. That is really impressive what he did on that mountain.
Again though, Matt was/is a great mountain-ultra runner not because he had "2:19 marathon speed" or great flat-Running Economy (with a high Vo2max of 90+ that really helps at super high altitude but means at sea level his running economy was relatively poor on flat roads).
If anything (with all my comments), I'd just like to demonstrate that Zach is (IMO) for sure clean. What he has done (while very impressive and physically amazing), is something that this sport has demonstrated over and over for years: Hardwork, and specific mountain-training (and running with heart!) can pay off big time in long distance races with lots of climbing...even for those without the NCAA DI college track backgrounds (which certainly help, but are not required to win the big ultras still).
Now if some 2:06-2:08 marathoners from East Africa showed up, I might say otherwise...but still... the mountains/hills over 50+ miles can be somewhat of an equalizer. "
-Sage Canaday
Those little tiny spindly legged marathoners running 2:05 wouldn't have a chance in the mountains at a race like UTMB.
Yuki would have a chance though. He is one tough runner!!
Hey man....I see you quoted me. Couple things: 1. All mountain races are very different. I've run Sierre-Zinal....I did horrible there (worst leg cramps of my life). It is a very, very unique and specific profile. Mountain Running in Europe is a totally different ballgame in general (compared to the US especially. UTMB is totally different from a "shorter classic" like Sierre-Zinal....just like Zegama is very different (although I will say Zegama and Sierre-Zinal have a bit more in common compared to many others). I won't even get into the 100-milers but obviously I've failed spectacularly in all the ones i've attempted. 2. I noticed an EPO positive tested athlete (in the past...she served her 2 years) made the top 5 again. As far as I've seen drug/PED testing in Mountain-Ultra-Trail Running (MUT) is generally not very strict or common. We've seen EPO positives in the top 10 men at UTMB (and that's on a race day test!) so we already know the sport is not 100% clean. It is a shame, but it is a lucrative endurance sport and people will cut corners. 3. For sure very talented runners like Jono Wyatt and other guys that are sub 2:15 marathoners and sub 28-min 10km guys can do very well in a lot of MUT Races. Jono never really ventured much beyond 26.2 though. His Mt. WA course record is very very impressive. He is/was a climbing monster. The sample size has traditionally been quite small with fast track/road runners doing mountain events though. You get guys like Pat Smyth (62-min half) and Max King, but in the US there really aren't that many sub 2:15 or sub 63-min half guys smashing it on the trails and totally dominating. I believe Matt Carpenter was only a 2:19 marathon guy. I've seen guys who are much faster at the track 5k/10k not even do very well in road marathons. There is a certain genetic angle of course (with variable running economy) and a matter of specific training. Some guys can be great with a high Vo2max...but they have to be able to have the climbing ability and downhill ability. Some can be trained and some cannot. Its not like every sub 29:00 10km college runner is going to be a great marathoner that can run under 2:12 and make the Olympic team like a Brian Sell. Sometimes the 30:00 10km guy turns into the 2:15 marathoner and the 29:00 guy never breaks 2:20. With MUT running you get more extremes and a lot of the events can be quite unpredictable. No doubt a lot of top E. African marathon runners could dominate and smash some course records...so would also not do as well though. What I'd like to see is some more actual PED testing in the sport though. There is certainly enough incentive to dope.
joecrunner wrote:
Geez, I struck a nerve clearly.
Yeah I do kinda hate it cause I enjoy MUT running.
It's getting faster, but give some low 27 minute 10k guys 1 to 2 years training for mountains, I bet you records will fall. Keep in mind, I'm referring to sub ultra distances.
There was a strong correlation between half marathon prs and performances at the US Mt running Champs. The top guys can run 62-63 minutes. Obviously you need specialized training, ie Ben Bruce. Give a 60 minute guy 6 months to a year and see what happens.
Anything 50k or over, yeah it's not necessarily about who is fastest at the half.
If you prefer anecdotal stuff, practically all the local trail races with any prize reward around where I live are won by people that focus on road races.
Would be funny to watch the "A" class African on a technical rocky descent. Probably snap an ankle in the first 10m
Cool, sounds like he went out too hard and wasn't prepared for the event, I never said any world class road runner or track runner could succeed without specific training.
I specifically mentioned sub ultra distance, aka under 31 miles. But for clarity let's say any event that would take an elite runner 3 or more hours to finish.
I definitely think for 100's and 50 milers, short distance prs are practically irrelevant.
Hey Sage, thanks for the reply, I added the full quote of yours to provide context so that I wouldn't twist your words. I wasn't so much suggesting you would agree with me 100%, I simply remember that post, and you articulated some of my points better than I could.
My key takeaway was: "What he has done (while very impressive and physically amazing), is something that this sport has demonstrated over and over for years: Hardwork, and specific mountain-training (and running with heart!) can pay off big time in long distance races with lots of climbing...even for those without the NCAA DI college track backgrounds (which certainly help, but are not required to win the big ultras still)."
I was careful to mention once you hit the ultra distances, the speedier road/track guys may not have as much or any success.
I acknowledge how a runner like Kilian can beat very fast track and road runners like Joe Gray in a mountain race despite probably not being super fast on the track himself, and how some fast 5k/10k guys struggle at the marathon (I believe Ritz ran 2:14 in his debut)
My main point is, as the sample size increases, and MUT becomes more lucrative (I believe it is more so in Europe atm, correct me if I am wrong), you'll see more versatile runners that can throw down on a world class level on flat and steep more frequently.
I agree of course that doping is an issue in MUT, and that could worsen as times go on unless there is a paradigm shift in the sport of running, which I believe there will be a big change soon.
I have utmost respect for trail runners, I never meant to demean to insult any athletes, I was suggesting since the sample size for faster runners road runners is small in MUT, it's fair to say you'll start to see some really impressive performances.