Road Racing and Training Thread, Week Ending 3/11/2018

I started listening to that Morning Shakeout podcast (thanks for the tip toohot). He interviewed Ritz a few weeks back...Ritz said he doesn't like excuses, but there are also reasons things happen, because he doesn't believe in coincidences. So maybe I'll say there are reasons I left time on the table.

Half: No taper, underestimated fitness, closed way too fast and fresh to be my real best effort...but a PR by like 7.5 minutes.

Full: Warm and humid and not acclimated, went out at perfect weather pace anyway...but a PR by like 16 minutes.

5k: Three weeks after full with no 5k specific training and only a couple runs in that time at all while I recovered. Went out way too fast because I hadn't run a 5k in a year...not a PR, but possibly a post-high school PR and 2 minutes faster than the one I ran the previous year? I haven't run many 5ks since high school.

No runner's ever satisfied, right? I like to look at it optimistically that I've still got room to improve before I plateau (hopefully...knock on wood).

Smoove, Ritz also said the part of FL where you two are running is like the "Kenya of the Eastern US"...with the rolling hills and red dirt.

While I'm writing a novel anyway...question for the Jack Daniels fans. I've got ~9 weeks between this half and Chicago training where I want to work on 5k/10k fitness. Not sure if I'll have a true goal race at the end or I just want to hit some of his phases and paces to work on something I've neglected. For example, don't think I've done 200 repeats since high school and I want to do some stuff like that before I spend all summer hammering strength/endurance. Unfortunately to blindly follow the 40-50mpw cookie cutter plan it's 24 weeks total. I'm still planning on digging into the details more than the quick re-skim I did last night, but what would you do with 9 weeks to work on 5k/10k fitness? Not sure if I'll have time in the late spring calendar for a true "goal race" or if I need a real "peak" at the end of this period. Just want to hit the work in a semi-structured progression. Phase I is already out because I figure I've been running plenty. Should I focus on Phase II and III? Phase III and IV? 3 weeks of each? He has some guides but those often assume either coming from nothing, or prioritizing the taper/peak at the end. I want to prioritize the speed and turnover a little bit more I think. I really need to read it more carefully this week because I'm sure I misspoke somewhere here...

Gordon, here is a sample training cycle for you based off a longer plan that I prepared for the YMCA group that I used to coach. A very Danielsesque approach. These are just the track sessions, the weekly tempo effort in the form of either a tempo run or a cruise interval workout are not included. Email me if you want a full spreadsheet with everything included. It is roughly broken up into three phases - initial running economy/rep phase, core vo2max phase, race modeling phase. The 3rd workout in the first phase might be a touch aggressive, but a lot of people have given me positive feedback on that workout. The key to that one (and all of the first three workouts) is to stay controlled such that your form doesn't break down - if your form breaks down, you are defeating the purpose of the workout.

- 4 x 200 (200 jog recovery); 4 x 400 (400 jog recovery); 4 x 200 (200 jog recovery). All at mile race pace. Full recovery between sets

- 2-3 sets of 4 x 400 at mile race pace with 400 jog between reps and full recovery between sets

- 5-6 x 600 at mile race pace with 3:00-4:00 jog after each rep

- 6-8 x 800 at 5k race pace w/400 jog plus some lag time rest (2:30-3:00)

- 5-6 x 1000 at 5k race pace with 600 jog rest

- 4-5 x 1200 at 5k race pace with 3:30 active rest

- 3 x 200 at rep pace; 4 x 1000 at 5k pace w/3:00 rest; 3 x 200 at rep pace

- 3-4 sets of 200-800-200 with 200 slow jog in between reps and 3-4 minutes between sets. 200s at mile pace, 800s at 5k pace

- 3 x 200; 4-6 x 800 at 5k race pace w/400 jog plus some lag time rest (2:30-3:00); 3 x 200

I thought I'd start doing some easy barefoot running in the end or start of my sessions to improve form and strengthen the feet, so I did 2k yesterday and 5k today barefoot (half on synthetic grass and half on the track). Now I have a blister in the second toe of each of my feet, but on the other hand I did feel like when I put on my shoes after running barefoot I was running with better form.

Anyone here try doing a little barefoot running mixed in with normal training and see any benefits?

Thanks Smoove! This is plenty helpful, you don't need to go making any spreadsheets. I don't have the book in front of me...if I want to hop into a weekend race any given week would it replace the workout you listed, the tempo run, or neither?

I would just send you a spreadsheet of the longer plan I used for my group.

If you jump into a 5k, I would drop the vo2max workout that week if you have one of those on the calendar, but if you have a rep week on the calendar, I would drop the tempo run.

If you jump into a 10k, I would drop the tempo workout. That could go either way, but given your training history, and your historical lean towards threshold work as a result of half marathon/marathon training, I think you would be better served by keeping the faster stuff in there during this short period (unless you were feeling a bit run down from the sudden increase in speed work, in which case you could drop the track session and keep the tempo session).

Looking at my training calendar, I plopped a 4-3-2-1 workout onto next Wednesday. I want a long workout with a mix of MP and Daniels' T pace, but this is the first time attempting this and I don't want to screw it (or myself) up. What is the appropriate way to run this? I was thinking the 4 is all MP, the rest is T. Sound reasonable?

Another way could be running the 4- and 3-mile segments as progressions from MP to T, then 2 & 1 segments all T.

For context, this workout is a progression of an 8-mile progression tempo I ran in mid-Feb. Started just under MP and worked down to T for the last 2 miles. For this one, I want the ladder format so that I can spend more time at T, but still keep the overall volume high.

Thoughts?

My thoughts, for whatever they are worth:

I like the idea of doing the 4 at MP and then the rest at T pace After you get the 4 out of the way, you basically get 6 miles of T work, which is a medium amount of T work for a marathon plan and your overall volume.

The M work will be a nice way to prime the waste product pump - it won't take a lot out of you, but it should result in some waste product buildup, and will require some concentration. Moreover, it would give you some time locking in the rhythm of M pace, which you don't otherwise get a ton of given your Daniels-centric approach. That's also a reason not to do it as a progression as you will lose the sustained stretch at M pace and thus the muscle memory associated with it. The way I see it, that's the whole point of the M work in a workout like that anyway - to get used to the pace (with the priming of the H+ pump being a distant secondary benefit).

The only other way I might run that workout would be to make the last mile M pace as well - just to lock that pace in when fatigued some. I would still prefer the first approach, but can see some logic behind this approach as well.

When I was in HS and younger I did a lot of barefoot running. I'd do 400's around my yard mostly, in the summer at night I'd sneak on to the golf course and run barefoot and would now and then run barefoot in the cornfield. Looking back it was a good deal of fun.

Did it help? I'm not sure to be honest. I think it probably did help with form, turnover and foot strength. I'd be careful where you run and how often you do it. You could possibly over do it quickly if you are not use to barefoot running. You could also step on things and get a serious injury if not careful.

I don't know if this helps, but the one marathoner I know recently ran this workout. He's a 2:20 guy so MP for him is about 5:20, although he's run 2:21 low in Pittsburgh which is a notoriously tough course so true MP for him might be closer to 5:15. Looks to me like he's hovering about 5-10 seconds under MP for the first few reps and then closing down a little quicker, but really never getting significantly faster than MP other than that last rep. The erratic splits are due to terrain change so it's better to look at the overall average for each segment as opposed to the delta between each mile.

5mile: 5:09, 17, 04, 16, 08 (5:10 avg)- 5min rest

4mile: 5:04, 14, 05, 19 (5:10 avg)- 4min rest

3mile: 5:09, 07, 08 - (5:08 avg) 3min rest

2mile: 5:13, 5:13 - (5:13 avg) 2min rest

1mile: 4:54 - done

I Have this week of hard training and next week, then a transition week and a taper week. When a cycle before a race is coming to an end does everyone think I should have done more of this or that? I def have that feeling when t comes to continuous tempos, but that 8k race and 10k race helped with that I would assume... Wish I had an extra 2 weeks!

statfanatic wrote:

I don't know if this helps, but the one marathoner I know recently ran this workout. He's a 2:20 guy so MP for him is about 5:20, although he's run 2:21 low in Pittsburgh which is a notoriously tough course so true MP for him might be closer to 5:15. Looks to me like he's hovering about 5-10 seconds under MP for the first few reps and then closing down a little quicker, but really never getting significantly faster than MP other than that last rep. The erratic splits are due to terrain change so it's better to look at the overall average for each segment as opposed to the delta between each mile.

5mile: 5:09, 17, 04, 16, 08 (5:10 avg)- 5min rest

4mile: 5:04, 14, 05, 19 (5:10 avg)- 4min rest

3mile: 5:09, 07, 08 - (5:08 avg) 3min rest

2mile: 5:13, 5:13 - (5:13 avg) 2min rest

1mile: 4:54 - done

This looks more reasonable to me. Closer to MP than to T pace.

Smoove,

I know you mentioned you used a longer taper when you ran a bit too much mileage for one of your builds.

How did that differ from the standard Daniels'

6 weeks out - 100%

5 weeks out - 80%

4 weeks out - 70%

3 weeks out - 70%

2 weeks out - 60% ?

statfanatic wrote:

I don't know if this helps, but the one marathoner I know recently ran this workout. He's a 2:20 guy so MP for him is about 5:20, although he's run 2:21 low in Pittsburgh which is a notoriously tough course so true MP for him might be closer to 5:15. Looks to me like he's hovering about 5-10 seconds under MP for the first few reps and then closing down a little quicker, but really never getting significantly faster than MP other than that last rep. The erratic splits are due to terrain change so it's better to look at the overall average for each segment as opposed to the delta between each mile.

5mile: 5:09, 17, 04, 16, 08 (5:10 avg)- 5min rest

4mile: 5:04, 14, 05, 19 (5:10 avg)- 4min rest

3mile: 5:09, 07, 08 - (5:08 avg) 3min rest

2mile: 5:13, 5:13 - (5:13 avg) 2min rest

1mile: 4:54 - done

Man, would love to see how that fit into his overall routine. If I were doing a 18 instead of 14 week build, I was considering the 5-4-3-2-1. But I was thinking MP all the way unless I was feeling really good the last 3 miles or so. Do you think the alternating pace the first 9 miles was part of the plan or just a result of terrain?

I'm thinking along the lines of Smoove. 6 miles is about the volume of T pace I'm looking for, but tacking on the 4 miles of MP will extend the run to 15-16 miles total, which checks the other box of what I want out of it. And "priming the pump" is a nice way of putting it.

I ran for over a year barefoot/vibram fivefingers exclusively (feels great in the rain!) (Yes, trail runs, too!). I even ran a marathon in fivefingers. I'm big on experimenting, and this was one of my year-long experiments.

I had some chronic shin-splint trouble and achilles soreness that I no longer have. Not sure the improvement was due to the barefootedness as much as by the necessity to run "lightly." Anyway, those problems were solved and stayed away after going back to more traditional footwear.

Coming back to traditional shoes after a year barefoot resulted in a funny kind of "illusion" that I think has been beneficial to me. While most people fear training in racers or flats because of the lack of support/cushioning, for me it was a huge step UP in support and cushioning for me. I've trained in racers ever since.

Coach - barefoot running and the all fat diet ! And live to tell the tale (for now) you do experiment...

Definitely terrain related. The park he ran this at is brutally hilly. His running log is public on running2win if you want to look at his overall build.

jewbacca, do you operate out of the 2nd or 3rd edition of Daniels?

jewbacca wrote:

Looking at my training calendar, I plopped a 4-3-2-1 workout onto next Wednesday. I want a long workout with a mix of MP and Daniels' T pace, but this is the first time attempting this and I don't want to screw it (or myself) up. What is the appropriate way to run this? I was thinking the 4 is all MP, the rest is T. Sound reasonable?

Thoughts?

That’s sounds reasonable. I’ve done 4-3-2-1 a couple times recently w the 4 about halfway between MP and HMP, 3 and 2 at T, and 1 at whatever the hell I got left.

I really like that workout. Makes 16 miles fly by.

angryjohnny wrote:

jewbacca wrote:

Looking at my training calendar, I plopped a 4-3-2-1 workout onto next Wednesday. I want a long workout with a mix of MP and Daniels' T pace, but this is the first time attempting this and I don't want to screw it (or myself) up. What is the appropriate way to run this? I was thinking the 4 is all MP, the rest is T. Sound reasonable?

Thoughts?

That’s sounds reasonable. I’ve done 4-3-2-1 a couple times recently w the 4 about halfway between MP and HMP, 3 and 2 at T, and 1 at whatever the hell I got left.

I really like that workout. Makes 16 miles fly by.

Y’all are animals. I couldn’t handle that workout at my vdot paces... I’m just gonna continue to jog around 85% of the time.