What is Japan doing differently in marathon training compared to the U.S.?

ming ding xiong wrote:

Les wrote:

What I would like to know is why, with so many fast marathoners, they almost never compete outside the country.

They're not really incentivized to compete outside the country. The best runners work for companies, who pay them to compete in the major Japanese races, including the corporate ekiden, where doing well matters more to their employers than doing well in New York or London.

There's more of an explanation (and background) here:

https://www.mensjournal.com/entertainment/why-japan-is-the-most-running-obsessed-culture-in-the-world-w209376/

I read the whole book mentioned in the article last year. Same author as "Running with the Kenyans" -- very, very good writer.

This book was an absolute snoozer, though. The author went to Japan hoping to train with the top runners in the country and find out some of their training methods. But he never got access to any of the elites, so he was forced to run with local clubs and independently research elite Japanese training methods.

Some of the insights gained from that book:

1) Japanese runners work for the companies that sponsor them, although usually only for about 20 hours per week. This schedule gives them financial security and enough time to train like elite athletes.

2) The Japanese mentality -- in work, athletics, etc. -- is that more is better. It's normal for students and professionals to be falling asleep throughout the day because they are working so many hours. With running, this means training to the absolute brink in terms of volume, which is obviously beneficial to marathon running.

3) Because Japanese runners work for their sponsors, they live and train in the city. This means running nearly all of their miles on roads, which obviously isn't ideal. There are countless Japanese runners who are running sub 1:04 and sub 2:12 before the age of 25, but very few who are hitting those marks afterwards.

4) The bottom line is that a select few Japanese runners can handle the crazy volume they are forced to run from a young age on pavement, leading to amazing times in their early 20s. But as soon as their bodies age even a little bit, they can no longer handle that type of punishment to their legs, and many are done running by their late 20s, often plagued by horrible injuries. Companies then move on to the next crop of young runners, and the cycle repeats.

Winning wrote:

Just watched the Tokyo marathon. And holy sheet they have some depth. What are they doing differently in training compared to the U.S. distance runners?

They not may be winning medals at the championships but they are running fast consistently.

High milage young, disciplined, corporate support with jobs and available hours to train.

They will race internationally vs American men afraid to travel.

American men focused on being top american vs all effort to win like the Japanese attitude.

Here's just a minor example of the advantages an athlete has if they live in a society that values what they do:

http://www.sony.jp/walkman/special/sports/interviews/osakosuguru/?s_tc=jp_adv_ad_walkman006_D_02-01-02_tt_pc_re_00005&utm_source=ad&utm_medium=adv&utm_campaign=smoj-brand_gdn_walkman006_D_02-01-02_tt_pc_re_osako

It's a Sony ad for a music player that was displayed for me on this LR message board page because my IP address shows I'm in Japan. The ad is a fluff "interview" with Suguru Osako, in which he talks about how much he enjoys wearing his Sony music player when he runs. You can bet he was paid well for this.

Even successful running coaches get the celebrity treatment. Rarely a day goes by when I don't see Susumu Hara, the coach of the team that has won the Hakone Ekiden the last 4 years, on some national TV show or another.

Heres the thing about Asian countries like Japan and Korea. They only focus on the marathon and the rest of their times suffer so if you don't do well in the marathon thats it. Both Korea and Japan have very very weak middle distance national records (Japan 3:27, Korea 3:38). There is no focus and development on speed before moving up like in the US where you start as an 800/miler when you're young then proceed to move up in distance naturally as you mature. Japan and Korea need to start putting more focus on middle distance and let young athletes beat those times and then the rest will follow.

Also, the corporate Ekiden racing takes a huge amount of their talent and they only want to do that.

No no no wrote:

Japan: big emphasis on aerobic development when young. High mileage and low weight.

America: Emphasis on middle distance when young. Medium Mileage and stronger build.

Americans eat a lot of protein and thus have bigger bodies.

Not so much in Japan (or Kenya/Ethiopia). More unrefined grains/complex carbohydrates.

Primo Numero Uno wrote:

The Marathon is one of the bigger sports in Japan. Not even in the top 10 in the US. Plus all the Japanese track talent goes straight to the marathon.

Also factor in their corporate sponsorship with more financial support and you've got a much better environment for distance running.

Pretty much sums it up. Imagine if all the NCAA XC runners were instead peaking for marathons/HM. All those sub 29 guys would be running sub 66 half marations. And then when they graduate they would find some cushy job that lets they train another 5 years to see if they could become 2:12 guys. Get enough of them and you will get the outliers running sub 2:09. There is also a huge loss of support after college. Most of these very good (but not top) runners struggle after college in that they lose their support system (no more college coaches or training groups), have to get jobs (i.e. not a lot of money for a 28:50 runner) which makes it really hard to take the next steps which could turn them into 2:11 type runners.

Though it should be said US marathon times really suck compared to their 10k times on average. Ryan Vail (not to pick on him but to give an example) is a 27:45/2:11 marathoner. Top marathoners are 27:45/2:08 guys. If that is training, opportunity (i.e. picking fast course on a fast day), or physiology (maybe the 10k is his best distance)

Winning wrote:

No go wrote:

Rupp=1.5 (.5 for olympic medal) Japan=0

Japan has more sub 2:09 marathoners today in just the Tokyo marathon, than America has ever in there history (so far).

Not quite, Japan had 6 UNDER 2:09.00 the USA has 8 men UNDER 2:09.00 and a 9th Greg Meyer at 2:09.00 EXACTLY.

Hall-2:04.58 (If you don't count that 2:06.17)

Khanouchi -2:05.38

Ritz-2:07.47

Meb -2:08.37

Kempainen- 2:08.47

Salazar-2:08.51

Beardsley-2:08.53

Abdi-2:08.56

Meyer 2:09.00

Also ( I am not counting it, that is up to you, I am just acknowledging it) Bill Rogers ran 2:08.23 in Japan on a course 150-200 meters short, so his pace would have put in under 2:09.00 if the race directors measured it correctly.

Also Mbarek Hussein ran 2:08.10 in Korea a couple of months before he became American, his best as an American was 2:09.55

Still Japan's Marathoners were incredible last night.

Japanese Pro wrote:

I'm Japanese Pro.

We run 10,000 meters a day, do 100 pushups, 100 situps and 100 squats everyday as well.

That is our secret.

nice one punch man reference

Like Renato says: If you want to run the marathon, you need to train for the marathon.

I don't know if that is exactly how he put it, but I believe many U.S 10K guys don't fully commit to running the marathon distance.

The marathon is a unique event, and must be prepared for accordingly.

Things are looking good for the U.S though, as I see many budding U.S marathon guys and gals in the future

douglas burke wrote:

Winning wrote:

Japan has more sub 2:09 marathoners today in just the Tokyo marathon, than America has ever in there history (so far).

Not quite, Japan had 6 UNDER 2:09.00 the USA has 8 men UNDER 2:09.00 and a 9th Greg Meyer at 2:09.00 EXACTLY.

Hall-2:04.58 (If you don't count that 2:06.17)

Khanouchi -2:05.38

Ritz-2:07.47

Meb -2:08.37

Kempainen- 2:08.47

Salazar-2:08.51

Beardsley-2:08.53

Abdi-2:08.56

Meyer 2:09.00

Also ( I am not counting it, that is up to you, I am just acknowledging it) Bill Rogers ran 2:08.23 in Japan on a course 150-200 meters short, so his pace would have put in under 2:09.00 if the race directors measured it correctly.

Also Mbarek Hussein ran 2:08.10 in Korea a couple of months before he became American, his best as an American was 2:09.55

Still Japan's Marathoners were incredible last night.

Kempainen's run was aided to the same level as Halls. Remove the aided courses (and yes Boston is an aided course especially on the years when the wind blows) and that list gets a lot shorter.

I’m ok with US guys underperforming at the marathon if it means they continue to have more success on the track. Track always has been and always will be cooler.

douglas burke wrote:

Winning wrote:

Japan has more sub 2:09 marathoners today in just the Tokyo marathon, than America has ever in there history (so far).

Not quite, Japan had 6 UNDER 2:09.00 the USA has 8 men UNDER 2:09.00 and a 9th Greg Meyer at 2:09.00 EXACTLY.

Hall-2:04.58 (If you don't count that 2:06.17)

Khanouchi -2:05.38

Ritz-2:07.47

Meb -2:08.37

Kempainen- 2:08.47

Salazar-2:08.51

Beardsley-2:08.53

Abdi-2:08.56

Meyer 2:09.00

Also ( I am not counting it, that is up to you, I am just acknowledging it) Bill Rogers ran 2:08.23 in Japan on a course 150-200 meters short, so his pace would have put in under 2:09.00 if the race directors measured it correctly.

Also Mbarek Hussein ran 2:08.10 in Korea a couple of months before he became American, his best as an American was 2:09.55

Still Japan's Marathoners were incredible last night.

Nice to reminisce about history but a look over the last few years of world lists, Japan far outdoes the Americans with fast times as a whole. Why would you not mention this? How about 10k times, same.

crosscounts wrote:

Winning wrote:

Japan has more sub 2:09 marathoners today in just the Tokyo marathon, than America has ever in there history (so far).

That is nice. Maybe we should also compare marathon medals and major wins.

Not to say the Japanase don't perform well at the marathon (they are great), and not to say American's marathon depth is non-existent (don't we all love guessing who will be the next elite, well-funded American to tackle the 2:12 barrier).

The plethora of faster runners is the harbinger of things to come.

Once in a while not so much.

NOP Skeptic wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Cultural and economisation of talent. Japan tends to focus on either 100m or the Marathon whereas America is strong from 200m to 10,000m.

The American’s had an Olympic silver medalist and went 1-2 in the world championships last year in the men’s 100m, and medalist at both championships/games in the women’s 100m

The Americans had an Olympic silver medalist in the men’s marathon and a world championship bronze in the women’s marathon last year.

What are you talking about?

So NOP Skeptic and YMMV are the same person.

So over the last 20 years America hasn't won major medals over 200m, 400m, 800m (Murphy), 1500m (Centro), 5k (Chelimo), 10k (Rupp) and Japan has, right?

Makes sense. Kawauchi does a lot, but he's not a corporate guy.

Americans worry about HR and Miles too much.

Nuff said

sillyman wrote:

crosscounts wrote:

That is nice. Maybe we should also compare marathon medals and major wins.

Not to say the Japanase don't perform well at the marathon (they are great), and not to say American's marathon depth is non-existent (don't we all love guessing who will be the next elite, well-funded American to tackle the 2:12 barrier).

The plethora of faster runners is the harbinger of things to come.

Once in a while not so much.

People have been saying for YEARS now that Japan is the next big thing in running. It hasn’t happened yet, and in my estimation, they still have yet to have even one guy seriously contend in a big international race outside of Japan. I’d like to see them start tearing up the Diamond League or even just the major marathons, but I don’t believe they will in the foreseeable future.

I don't know if many or most Japanese marathoners train like this guy, but I see many days of 60 minutes jog/12k. In other words, tons of miles at about 8 minute pace.

http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/TrainingLogs/inubushi.htm

they train in Albuquerque. They are really respectable and hard works