Road Racing & Training Thread: Week Ending 04 Feb 2018

That is a great feedback for a noob to hear.

Re: Shoes

I'm a big fan of low drop shoes. Come to think of it, my injury happened immediately after I added a "regular" drop shoe in my rotation (about 12mm drop).

Con of low drop- Achilles are strained much more but could be strengthened

Re: Marathon Pace

Calculators have always skewed me to the faster end, but my aerobic capacity is garbage (only been running less than 2 years). For me, the McMillan calculator was the best... my 5K time finally caught up to my mile time... but I still think rather aggressive for longer races since I'm an aerobic baby.

Let your training dictate your training. I'm not a proponent of settling on a goal pace at the beginning or middle of a cycle. In fact, I'm not a proponent of having any type of pace-oriented training. Marathon pace will be right around your aerobic threshold and as you get fitter that will most certainly become a moving target.

The medium long run is VERY important.

Agree the daniels charts are aggressive for M pace and particularly hard to hit on untapered legs. I will see as much as a 10-15 sec per mile boost when I drop down from 100 mpw.

You def have the right idea for a race place. I like to establish a range of about 10 secs per mile and focus on running at the fastest pace in that range that feels very comfortable and relaxed for the first half. Feels like I’m holding back. Need to be able to carry on a conversation easily at half way. If you are out of breath at 13.1 you are toast. From there you can start to open up a little bit but ideally keep holding a little back until mile 20 when the race/effort really begins. I like to describe the effort in terms of green (first half), yellow (13-20), red (20-26.2)

J - I started two years ago, and aerobic development was the reason I ran for 10 months with no watch and zero set workouts. Basically just tried to cover as much distance as possible in those months regardless of pace. then for the next 4 months I basically did the same thing with a tempo every other week or so. I feel like now i am just starting to reap the rewards of the slow miles.

Just got a question for you guys. It's a little contradictory in a way so I've never came across a good explanation on it. I've kind of come to the conclusion that I'm a fastish twitch runner over the last few years, I've got a decent base line of speed and generally cruise through interval sessions and long runs are generally a tortorous affair which leads me to that belief. The question is what approach should someone who is an FT fiber runner be doing in marathon training? Would the changes be dramatic compared to traditional methods or is it just a case that it will take me longer to really adapt to the stresses of longer runs and the marathon itself?

Elixer wrote:

Just got a question for you guys. It's a little contradictory in a way so I've never came across a good explanation on it. I've kind of come to the conclusion that I'm a fastish twitch runner over the last few years, I've got a decent base line of speed and generally cruise through interval sessions and long runs are generally a tortorous affair which leads me to that belief. The question is what approach should someone who is an FT fiber runner be doing in marathon training? Would the changes be dramatic compared to traditional methods or is it just a case that it will take me longer to really adapt to the stresses of longer runs and the marathon itself?

If you really want an answer better than any of us can give you take the time to read one of the best threads ever posted here on Letsrun:

Short answer: A fast twitch dominant runner would be best served by breaking up marathon effort into chunks and then gradually blending (or as Canova suggests EXTENDING) those segments together throughout a periodized plan.

Btw, figuring out goal pace is part of what makes the marathon a fun/challenging puzzle. You really don’t know what you are capable of until you do it, there are so many variables and things that can go wrong, you only get one legit shot every 6 months or so, and it hurts like hell if you mess up.

Truer words have never been spoken. Theee marathons from November 2014 through April 2017 and I haven't aced one yet (bonked at 21-22, cramped at 21, cramped at 18).

Slo, did some strides in those 4%s just a few minutes ago. I still don't know what to make of them. I think I am going to race my 4 miler in them tomorrow.

Smoove - Whats my Handicap 4miler vs 8k? I am thinking 8 mins.

I've been traveling and took the time to get offline for a while. I'm back home and back to work now, and back to running regularly, and trying to catch up here.

Because of the family itinerary on our trip in Japan, I only ran once while there, and I don't feel bad about it at all.

Now, I've got 12 pages of thread to catch up on...

Just curious since I've never done a marathon. Why only two shots a year? In a Lydiardish approach you can peak twice a year. You should be able to hold a peak for about a month. So why not run another if the first one goes bad? Is it the cost, no available race, or to worn out from first attempt?

Seems like if you start bombing the first you could scrap it and get into another.

7:40 under normal cirsumstances, but I am going to run for 2nd place tomorrow, not for time.

5 pages in...

Nice to see strong weeks from everyone, despite the sometimes challenging weather conditions. My run in Japan was my first sub-freezing run since high school, I think. It was mildly enjoyably brisk... knowing that I'd be heading back to warmer climes.

Jeremy: Congrats!

OR: Your good weeks energize me!

Working Harder: I agree with everyone else. You don't want to be too hard on yourself. Choosing a DNFinish over a DNStart is nothing to feel bad about.

wdude: Welcome to you! Looking forward to following your progress. I've also had "mental" issues when it comes to racing. The book "How Bad do you Want It" by Matt Fitzgerald was helpful to me.

Smoove: Thanks for sharing the "botched" workout story. Early in my running experience, I lacked the confidence to make judgements about my ability to finish a workout and so I would press on no matter what. Seeing posts by established coaches and competitors about changing plans mid-workout convinced me that not only is it OK, but sometimes optimal in a "big-picture" sense. While it shouldn't happen often if a runner is on a suitable plan, I now never hesitate to adjust on the fly.

OK, I'll try to read a few more pages later...

Smoove wrote:

7:40 under normal cirsumstances, but I am going to run for 2nd place tomorrow, not for time.

Same here. Between the weather and it being a points race for me. I am narrowly behind second place in the points so could use a good showing.

Pappy wrote:

Just curious since I've never done a marathon. Why only two shots a year? In a Lydiardish approach you can peak twice a year. You should be able to hold a peak for about a month. So why not run another if the first one goes bad? Is it the cost, no available race, or to worn out from first attempt?

Seems like if you start bombing the first you could scrap it and get into another.

If you start to bomb early you could scrap it and pick another race, or have a backup from the beginning like Bdubs mentioned for cases like weather and skip the first, but usually by the time you realize you've definitely bombed it's too late in the race to save yourself, and usually the marathon wears you out enough it takes weeks to recover if you go the whole way hard. Even if you feel "ok" within a week there are underlying things going on...muscle damage and hormone swings,etc. For me, to run for that long at a pace that is 1-1.5min/mi faster than my overall average pace during training...I go all the way to the well. I need several days to even walk normally again and usually a week to jog at all. I usually try to stick to one/year. Some of it obviously depends on training background, size etc...but anyone elite that's coached by Hanson's is encouraged to stick to only 3 marathons every 2 years, and take minimum two weeks off after the race from running at all to fully recover.

Allen, on the other hand will tell you the best way to run a lifetime PR is to run one every month for like 3 or 4 months and each one gets faster than the last.

I think I've decided to skip my high weekly mileage, but no long runs approach of the last couple of years and go with the traditional ultra approach of back-to-back weekend long runs for Zane Grey.

Probably do 10s on Tuesdays and Thursdays, tempo or hills on Wednesday and 15+ on Saturday and Sunday.

In a lot of ways the AM/PM runs and higher mileage is better for my schedule, but my results are pretty mixed the last couple of years.

Pappy wrote:

Just curious since I've never done a marathon. Why only two shots a year? In a Lydiardish approach you can peak twice a year. You should be able to hold a peak for about a month. So why not run another if the first one goes bad? Is it the cost, no available race, or to worn out from first attempt?

Seems like if you start bombing the first you could scrap it and get into another.

Arthur’s boys trained to peak twice a year as you said. He did not believe you could hold that peak for more than 2 or 3 weeks though. He would tell them “you’ll know when you’ve had enough and it’s time to start over.”

Coach Jeff - Glad to hear from you. I have been wondering about you—have you been busy? Had a couple of fast runs this week, and am looking to cap things off with a good long run tomorrow. I went over the numbers, and I must have been within seconds (or perhaps less) of that 37:20 last night...probably no more than two seconds off of a “new record. I should have just kept running for another half mile. :-)

All the best...