Bill Rodger and Frank Shorter potential if they would've of used Canova marathon training?

I'd have to guess that both Shorter and Rodgers would of been faster if they had coaches. Like most self coached athletes I'd guess Shorter and Rodgers missed a few things in their training that would of helped them improve. I'm sure at the time, in their era, their training seemed perfect. Training has advanced slightly since their time and I'm sure Canova and a few others could of helped them improve now.

I don't think either of them at the time were really open to having a true coach. I'm sure they both got good advice from fellow athletes instead. At the time they were the best in the world and very few had experience running as fast as they were.

HRE wrote:

lucky guy wrote:

You really want to believe you lived and trained in the pinnacle years of training, don't you?

Could not care less about that. But I'm not a bandwagon kind of guy. If we're going to claim that there's been some great improvement in training knowledge that's made everyone faster, then I think EVERYONE should be faster, not just people from the same two countries and the very occasional non East African outlier. To me, that suggests that a coach like Canova is successful because he's gotten better runners rather than a better method. It looks like a fine method, just not very different from what most people have been doing for the past fifty to sixty years.

You're on the Lydiard bandwagon like no other. Many countries are faster now both by absolute time and average and they surpass the glory years of the USA.

Their training is better. To suggest Canova's training is not much different is grasping at straws.

I'm not on anyone's bandwagon but Canova and Lydiard are so similar that it would be hard to be on one and not the other. By that measure I'm also on the Squires bandwagon. All three have differences. None can really be compared to the other completely because they took place in different eras and locations. No one can say what Lydaird or Squirees would have produced if they were coaching today and setting up shop in Kenya or what Canova would have done if he was coaching in Auckland in the 50s and 60s. Please tell me what countries are faster today than they were pre 1990, just to grab a year. There's Norway as of now. Maybe Austria and Switzerland, Japan but we can't attribute that to Canova. The Japanese are big Lydiard people. Where else? Finland? Ireland? Britain? New Zealand? Canada? Mexico? I may have missed something. When Canova's back in Italy and cranking out numerous clean sub 2:08 types I might reconsider.

In his latest book, Rodgers mentioned that quite a few of his lunchtime 8 milers were done in under 40 minutes.

Most countries have NRs dating after 1990.

Okay, most countries do have marathon records dating after 1990. But I don't think a Macedonian setting a national record of 2:25:06 in 2000 tells anyone anything about training methods. I think a lot of those post 1990 records are probably due more to the expansion of the marathon. Of the countries I mention, ones that have a history in distance running, only Finland has a record set after 1990. And national records aside, I'll say again that when year after year the world list has something like 19 of the top 20 from one part of the world it seems more likely to me that the athletes are more responsible than the coaching.

HRE wrote:

Okay, most countries do have marathon records dating after 1990. But I don't think a Macedonian setting a national record of 2:25:06 in 2000 tells anyone anything about training methods. I think a lot of those post 1990 records are probably due more to the expansion of the marathon. Of the countries I mention, ones that have a history in distance running, only Finland has a record set after 1990. And national records aside, I'll say again that when year after year the world list has something like 19 of the top 20 from one part of the world it seems more likely to me that the athletes are more responsible than the coaching.

I have to agree with HRE on this. To further his point, many national records set after 1990 were set by runners born, raised, and sometimes even trained in East Africa.

It would be really interesting to see a list of the median & average of the top 20 marathon times of every year 1970-present for American runners. I would expect to find that Americans have not gotten faster since the 1970's & 1980's. Serious question: Are Hall, Ritzenhein, and Rupp the only American-born runners to go sub-2:10 since 2000?

I tagged along with Bill Rodgers one race day in 1981.

That would have been an odd year, for sure, if you think about it. Rodgers was running some Pepsi Challenge 10K in the Midwest, and started his day off by running the course. Tiger trainers, and a T-shirt from some race likely the weekend before. Maybe low-7 minute pace.

We got back, and had about an hour until the race start. Bill changed into Racer X shoes, or whatever they were called, put on a Pepsi Challenge singlet, and ran a 29:0X something, just ahead of a local ex-collegiate hotshot. He stood around signing autographs for 60-90 minutes, then changed back into trainers and T-shirt from that day's event, and ran the course again. Maybe mid-7 pace, quite a few people were tagging along here.

18.6 miles on the day, with a 29m 10K in the middle.

ismgasm wrote:

Need to know wrote:

Who is Bill Rodger?

He's the guy who would've of if he could've of.

But did he should've of? That's the real question.

Nice!

I’m guessing they both would be slower runners with stupid accents

Bill Rodger is a COO at Steiger International. He probably could have improved with Canova training.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/billrodger01/

runn wrote:

I think nutrition information and maybe better shoes (especially racing) may have made them better.

^^^Disregarding general diet/nutrition debates, "in-race " nutrition effectively did not exist (re: the orange slices, banana wheels, de-fizzed Coke/Pepsi, and the like that was commonplace is laughable by modern standards). Gels, blocks, specially formulated sport drinks and etc... simply didn't exist yet. Throw in a pair of Vaporflys, well-compensated rabbits, and a lightning fast course like Berlin and voila, 2:05-07 was easily in their range, no dodgy Italian "coaches" required.