If Bill Rodger and Frank Shorter used Canova marathon training, do you think they would've went sub 2:06 for the marathon?
If Bill Rodger and Frank Shorter used Canova marathon training, do you think they would've went sub 2:06 for the marathon?
They would have severely underperformed compared to what they actually did. They were exceptionally well coached. Newer is not necessarily better.
Any reply is talks in fact is actually taking out of their ass. Maybe...Maybe Not is really the only honest answer if th No objectively.
Would have of?
No, the 2:05 drugs weren't around then. You had to run the 150 mile weeks without chemicals.
Libertarian vegan wrote:
If Bill Rodger and Frank Shorter used Canova marathon training, do you think they would've went sub 2:06 for the marathon?
Who is Bill Rodger?
Need to know wrote:
Who is Bill Rodger?
He's the guy who would've of if he could've of.
But did he should've of? That's the real question.
Wikipedia:
"It is now well known that East Germany operated a state-sponsored system of providing performance-enhancing drugs to as many as 10,000 athletes from about 1968 to 1988. Cierpinski was implicated by East German track and field research files uncovered by Werner Franke at the Stasi headquarters in Leipzig in the late 1990s.[3]
As a result, 1976 silver medallist Frank Shorter has advocated the belief that Cierpinski cheated and has supported official review of past performances, i.e. considering stripping medals from athletes who are found later on to have cheated, as a deterrent to drug-cheats"
Frank's training was 2 speed workouts, a long run, and and "as many miles as you can handle" which could be up to 200 miles in a week. I believe he said the 200 didn't work for him. The speed workouts were probably more specific to 10,000 meters.
So yes, Canova type long hard runs might have helped him, or they may have pushed him over the edge.
If you have ever done interval speed in a 150 mile week, you wouldn't ask these questions. You would directly experience what happens.
http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/Rodgers/TrainingLogs/br75traininglog.htmNeed to know wrote:
Libertarian vegan wrote:
If Bill Rodger and Frank Shorter used Canova marathon training, do you think they would've went sub 2:06 for the marathon?
Who is Bill Rodger?
fred wrote:
http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/Rodgers/TrainingLogs/br75traininglog.htmNeed to know wrote:
Who is Bill Rodger?
That's Bill Rodgers - I know who he is. I was wondering who Bill Rodger was.
Canova:
"The first man changing this old mentality was one Australian, Ron Clarke, that in 1964-68 was the first athlete running (not every day, of course, but once every week) for 15-20km very close 3:00 per km. He was able to destroy the World Record of 10000m moving, completely alone, from 28:15 to 27:39 without any rabbit.
If you want to beat your PB, you must run LONG and FAST. Running fast intervals and slow long run is not enough. Running always fast long run and never fast intervals is not enough. Training is a combination of different speeds, and, more slow is the speed, longer is the duration. If we want to see what really happens in our body, we can see that, for very little difference of speed (for example, from 3:00 per km to 3:10 per km) the level of lactate is very different. The type of work has different targets, the time that you use for building the same enzymatic situation is different, the quantity of fibres interested in our run is different. Running at 3:00 or at 3:20 or at 3:40 are different type of training. So, we must put, in our training, ALL these speeds. I give you an example, for an athlete having a PB of 15:00 in 5000m "
So this type of run was already around during Rodgers and Shorter's period of training.
fred wrote:
Fred, I'm still wondering who Bill Rodger was. You posted a link about Bill Rodgers.
Bill Rodger was your momma before the trans sex change.
Need to know wrote:
fred wrote:
Fred, I'm still wondering who Bill Rodger was. You posted a link about Bill Rodgers.
Bill Rodger was one of Lydiard's lesser known runners from the 50s and early 60s. I don't believe he made any NZ Olympic teams, can't say if he made any Commonwealth Games teams. Searches for him only turn up Bill Rodgers. But there was a Bill Rodger who was an elite distance runner. His son Kerry ran in four World Cross Country championships, two Commonwealth Games, and at leats one World Championships.
Libertarian vegan wrote:
If Bill Rodger and Frank Shorter used Canova marathon training, do you think they would've went sub 2:06 for the marathon?
No one will ever know. No one was going to run 2:06 when they were in their primes so if that's what you're talking about, not a chance. If you're bringing them forward in time and racing today when people run those sorts of times, maybe. But they'd have had different lives. Who knows if they'd have kept on with running after graduation or even taken up the sport at all? A big moment in Shorter's career came near the end of his time at Yale when Bob Giegengack told him he could accomplish anything in the sport that he wanted to, including the Olympics. Does Giegengack tell him that today with all the Ethiopians and Kenyans on the scene?
But I'm guessing that your question is starting from the assumption that Canova's coaching is the best marathon coaching there is, that you're assuming they'd have been faster if they'd trained with him and are wondering how much. Again, who knows? Shorter was self coached in his best years. Who knew him better than himself? I don't see any reason to take it for granted that a coach, any coach, would have improved on that. And what coaching Rodgers got came from Bill Squires whose record of getting non African marathon runners to fast times is much better than Canova's.
"Ron Clarke, that in 1964-68 was the first athlete running (not every day, of course, but once every week) for 15-20km very close 3:00 per km."
So 9 to 12 @ 4:47 pace.
I think that Joe Falcon and Seb Coe , milers, ran 10 miles in 48-49 minutes as a workout. And Marius as a tempo workout. And Ryan Hall at 4:50 pace as a tempo workout. And Tergat did blocks of 9 milers at 4:50 pace ( on hills? at 5,000 feet? )
Libertarian vegan wrote:
If Bill Rodger and Frank Shorter used Canova marathon training, do you think they would've went sub 2:06 for the marathon?
No, they were biomechanically sound and ran high mileage and as a result produced excellent times. Derek Clayton showed that 2:08 was possible but he broke down all the time as a result of extreme high mileage.
Todays clean athletes that can run low 27 minute 10000m are capable of handling marathon training can run perhaps 2:05-2:06.
No one knows for sure about the 2:03-2:04 times.......if they are real. I hope some are, but we have been tricked before.
Bill and Frank ran LONG and HARD. It was specific endurance, the same thing Canova preaches.
What Canova says, however, is that not everyone has the same ceiling. Not everyone can handle that much volume AND intensity.
Perhaps Bill and Frank could have run 2:03-2:05 if they were running today and if they had a bigger base from early childhood and altitude exposure.
Frank would do 20 milers with a slower first ten and then hard for the last ten.
Rodgers seemed to prefer racing for those type of efforts.
yin and yang wrote:
Frank would do 20 milers with a slower first ten and then hard for the last ten.
Rodgers seemed to prefer racing for those type of efforts.
Frank was not jogging the first half of those 20 milers. He would gradually accelerate to MP and finish faster. That extrapolates to the same kind of effort that Canova athletes push to. However, I don’t think Frank EXTENDED those efforts to 40 Km in training nor did he experiment with special blocks at least that I’m aware of. That could make a difference.