Bill Rodger and Frank Shorter potential if they would've of used Canova marathon training?

They would have run 2:03-04 if that had been necessary to win. They "only" ran 2"09-2:10 because that's all it took to win any race. That's how things used to be.

ah, wasn't Billy coached by Bill Squires?

Need to know wrote:

fred wrote:

http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/Rodgers/TrainingLogs/br75traininglog.htm

That's Bill Rodgers - I know who he is. I was wondering who Bill Rodger was.

He meant Will Rogers, homespun comedian back in the the 30s and 40s. If HE had used Canova training, he would of have broken 2:06 easy of.

patti wrote:

ah, wasn't Billy coached by Bill Squires?

Did you ever train with Bill or warm down with him after a race? Did you talk about coaches? What you know would probably be closer to the truth.

patti wrote:

ah, wasn't Billy coached by Bill Squires?

I always thought so. But then I read his autobiography and I think he said something about joining Greater Boston and doing his track workouts, which Squires would have designed and timed, with them, and meeting up with them for some longer runs. But he stopped short, as I recall and I don't have the book anymore, of calling Squires his coach. And evidently the huge mileage he did was his own creation. I was talking with Squires once and he told me that all those miles were BR's idea, not his (Squires.) But yeah, I've always thought of Squires as BR's coach. Maybe Hodgie-san is following and will chime in.

Beat me to it. Training and nutrition knowledge has advanced a decent amount, but there's another benefit some of these guys are getting, although there was some of that in Shorter and Rodger's time.

This question is bound to trigger a lot of people. They were some of the most dominant marathoners of their time and ran races that would be competitive with today's crop of Americans WITHOUT all the fancy training....definitely without some Italian coach. It really inspires a lot of people and touches on that blue collar pulse. A lot of the older posters love those runners and it makes them feel good that their generation is still competitive.

Their era was definitely better than the low-mileage era of the 80's, but they would absolutely do better with Canova's training. As a whole, athletics is the best it has ever been outside of the EPO era. Those two legends would have been even better with more advanced training. I just don't know if they would have actually tried it out.

We're outside the EPO era? When did that happen.

Testing is better and more frequent than before. Not perfect though and not even close to where it needs to be. It was more widespread before hand when testing was essentially non-existent. Yeah, there a people who dope now. Not nearly as much as before in my opinion. Your opinion may be different. As far as I know both of our opinions are just speculation unless we provide proof in the end. Regardless, these two runners would have been better off with training nowadays and I await a good argument as to why they wouldn't be other then they ran some okay times back then.

let's review this wrote:

Would have of?

I think he meant would've have of've.

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

Testing is better and more frequent than before. Not perfect though and not even close to where it needs to be. It was more widespread before hand when testing was essentially non-existent. Yeah, there a people who dope now. Not nearly as much as before in my opinion. Your opinion may be different. As far as I know both of our opinions are just speculation unless we provide proof in the end. Regardless, these two runners would have been better off with training nowadays and I await a good argument as to why they wouldn't be other then they ran some okay times back then.

Is this a joke. There is no out of competition testing in the East African nations that dominate the sport. The reason the guys keep getting faster and faster in the marathon is not because they are cracking down in doping.

And I await a good argument as to why they would be better off with training nowadays. I don't see any reason to believe it's any better than what they were doing and probably won't until we see someone other than East Africans turning in significantly faster times.

They would perform somewhat faster in this era, by how much I do not know, even without changing their training because they would have to run faster to be in the hunt for the top.

Many of the barriers in sport have a mental component and this is especially so in running and track.

It is amazing how quickly a sub four minute mile became somewhat common in the decade after Bannister broke the barrier.

Human micro-evolution did not move that fast.

Rodgers' and Shorter's performances were recent enough and close enough to modern finishing times so that a 1-2% improvement is not unreasonable just from will, competitive instinct, pride or whatever you want to call it.

They'd do what it takes to get under 2:07 because they'd learn that 2:09-2:11 was not going to get them where they wanted to go.

Bill Rodger was Fred Roger's brother.

Need to know wrote:

fred wrote:

Fred, I'm still wondering who Bill Rodger was. You posted a link about Bill Rodgers.

Frank Shorter and Bill Rodgers averaged over 6,000 miles per year for around 7 years during their peak years. That is with easy days before and after races, injuries, days off, etc included, so they were running 20 miles per day on the days they were running. Frank ran up to 170 miles per week at altitude in Vail, Colorado with Bacheler and Galloway before the 1972 Olympics.

Frank was also the fastest 10K guy in the race since he had just run a 27:51 10K for 5th place behind Lasse Viren's new world record. He won the Olympic gold. He was never the same after he got an injury to his foot.

Bill Rodgers has a 10K PR of 28:04 and Frank Shorter has a 10K PR of 27:45.

They both might have been able to run 2:07 or 2:08 on a fast course with pacing like Berlin.

Eliud Kipchoge has a 5K PR of 12:46 and a 10K PR of 26:49

Kenenisa Bekele has a 5k PR of 12:37 and a 10K PR of 26:17

Sub 27:00 10K or low 59 minute half-marathon speed is required to be able to run a sub-2:04 marathon.

A 1:01 half-marathon PR is too slow.

Galen Rupp is the only American with the required speed to have a chance to do it.

If it was just a matter of going faster as needed Rodgers would have beaten Seko and Salazar in '81 and '82.

Keep in mind Rodgers said he would have blood doped if he felt more comfortable with the procedure and had a doctor he trusted.

Both of them said they would have trained differently if they could do it again.

Rodger That wrote:

If it was just a matter of going faster as needed Rodgers would have beaten Seko and Salazar in '81 and '82.

Keep in mind Rodgers said he would have blood doped if he felt more comfortable with the procedure and had a doctor he trusted.

Both of them said they would have trained differently if they could do it again.

BR was past his peak by the time he ran those races.

HRE wrote:

Rodger That wrote:

If it was just a matter of going faster as needed Rodgers would have beaten Seko and Salazar in '81 and '82.

Keep in mind Rodgers said he would have blood doped if he felt more comfortable with the procedure and had a doctor he trusted.

Both of them said they would have trained differently if they could do it again.

BR was past his peak by the time he ran those races.

There was no reason he should be past his peak. The only reason those guys flamed out when they should have been thriving was failure to modify their training.

Besides apart from his two sub 2:10s he was just as fast in those years.

Rodgers had been running marathons seriously since 1974. It takes a toll. Tell me what marathon runners were winning major races seven or eight years after their first major win. Ron Hill might be a possibility but Ron was placing well in some big marathons, not winning, since 1963. But he wasn't winning major marathons until 1969. And do you know if Rodgers was training the same in the 80s as before? If so, how do you know and what was he doing. Hodgie-san only has Rodgers' logs to 1977 on his website so far and I don't know of any other place where one could see them. I'd be interested in what you know and how.