Measuring techniques wrote:
You do realize that courses are further today than they were?
No they're not.
Measuring techniques wrote:
You do realize that courses are further today than they were?
No they're not.
But, I think one point is the lack of depth- if the elites are going out slower the sub elites should have someone to tag along with.
The Good Old Days wrote:
And these guys raced . . . and raced often. Now our wimpy top Americans try to duplicate the East African strategy of racing one or two marathons annually and nothing else. The studs back in the 70's and 80's raced 15-25 times each year and were running several minutes fast than all of our Americans, except Rupp, yet still dozens were still running faster marathon times than Rupp.
Nailed it. Like I've said before, nobody races enough any more. EVEN RUPP. The E. African race twice yearly thing is perfect for them, because they'll run a 2:03-05, win cash, live life. Here, our "elites" follow that script, only run slower than nearly everyone did "back in the day," despite wearing shoes that cost millions in R&D. It's pathetic.
And Rupp is still slow as s-hit at the marathon.
We can't blame pacing, weather claims are rubbish. Perhaps the marathoners from yesteryear were better than we gave them credit for.
Nobody has mentioned the onset of agents. Initially, you might think the agent would want the athlete to run more often to milk more out of them, but instead they have a stable of 15-20 to milk, so each one doesn't race too often or against each other. They are spread out over the various races.
Also, there were no Kenyans on the scene until after the mid 80s so times were slow.
Steve Jones set a world record in 1984 Chicago marathon and just missed the new world record by one second in the 1985 Chicago marathon, set in the previous spring by Carlos Lopez. Seko won the 1986 Chicago marathon with one of the best all time times.
blood sucking hoes wrote:
Nobody has mentioned the onset of agents. Initially, you might think the agent would want the athlete to run more often to milk more out of them, but instead they have a stable of 15-20 to milk, so each one doesn't race too often or against each other. They are spread out over the various races.
Also, there were no Kenyans on the scene until after the mid 80s so times were slow.
Only the times in rabbited flat races are faster. And of those flat races, only Rotterdam existed during the timeframe we're talking about, 1981, where Graham nearly ran faster than Rupp's PR with a side stitch that dropped him from WR pace. Times were not slow back then. Times are slow now.
Beautiful Day wrote:
blood sucking hoes wrote:
Nobody has mentioned the onset of agents. Initially, you might think the agent would want the athlete to run more often to milk more out of them, but instead they have a stable of 15-20 to milk, so each one doesn't race too often or against each other. They are spread out over the various races.
Also, there were no Kenyans on the scene until after the mid 80s so times were slow.
Only the times in rabbited flat races are faster. And of those flat races, only Rotterdam existed during the timeframe we're talking about, 1981, where Graham nearly ran faster than Rupp's PR with a side stitch that dropped him from WR pace. Times were not slow back then. Times are slow now.
Yes, I agree. I didn't explain very well. I'm just suggesting that the agents have played a role in the changes over the years. I wasn't analyzing times.
Measuring techniques wrote:
You do realize that courses are further today than they were?
Boston for example has the same starting line and in the 80's finished before the Prudential Center nearly 300 meter up from where it finishes today.
The starting line at Boston now is not where it was in the 70s. It was moved at the same time the finish line was. Marathons have been 26.2 miles long since the first London Olympics and 26.2 miles now is exactly the same length it's always been.
ck3237 wrote:
Steve Jones set a world record in 1984 Chicago marathon and just missed the new world record by one second in the 1985 Chicago marathon, set in the previous spring by Carlos Lopez. Seko won the 1986 Chicago marathon with one of the best all time times.
Yes, I was there all 3 years. It was the Beatrice Era and Fred Lebow was rattled by it.
Lamar Hoyt
the Bob Bright far hills
HRE wrote:
Measuring techniques wrote:
You do realize that courses are further today than they were?
Boston for example has the same starting line and in the 80's finished before the Prudential Center nearly 300 meter up from where it finishes today.
The starting line at Boston now is not where it was in the 70s. It was moved at the same time the finish line was. Marathons have been 26.2 miles long since the first London Olympics and 26.2 miles now is exactly the same length it's always been.
Where is David Katz?
I believe that there was a rule change for how courses are currently measured? I thought David Katz once said something along the lines of all current courses are longer today than they were 20 Years ago?
themanontherun wrote:
Things that have changed since the 70s, and were present in the late aughts to early teens:
1 - Different training/nutrition/technology
2- More prize money
3 - More Africans
4 - Faster courses
5 - Drugs/doping/grey area
1 through 4 are still all on the scene. 5 is not, or is at least less so now; suddenly, times are slower.
Doping isn't happening? Really? I mean, really?
The IAAF is so corrupt Coe is likely they are keeping Diack's blackmail 10s of millions of Euros blackmail business going.
The Good Old Days wrote:
East African strategy of racing one or two marathons annually and nothing else.
Which, surprising no one, is ideal for oxygen vector doping.
Faster times are asymptotic. I'm not sure why everyone insists times have to fall on an annual basis.
Oh yeah, Americans have slowed in the marathon.
October 2016 Outside Magazine article
"Scanning the times from 1977 to 2015, one is struck by how performances appear to have declined since peaking in the early ’80s. Between 1978 and 1984, the 100th-place runner finished under 2:30 no fewer than 11 times. That has happened only once since 1988. Conversely, since the year 2002, there have been eight instances where the 100th-place runner was slower than 2:40, which had not happened a single time in the previous 25 years. "
https://www.outsideonline.com/2127116/great-slowing-american-runner
I know that when I did Boston in 1979 my gps watch showed it as 26.3 miles. I probably weaved a bit. But last year it showed 27.1 miles, which probably explains me being 6 minutes slower. The course was clearly longer.
El Nino is the reason.
Al Gore knows what he is talking about.