Scott Smith - over 2 minute PR at age 31.

Agree. This is the type of result I expect with group training - all guys running similar performances, means the program and training philosophy is sound.

. . . and Aaron Brauns 2:13 in Chicago in not great conditions shows that Ben Rosario knows what he is doing.

And yet sheep farming Dewi Griffiths goes with the leaders and nearly pulls a Steve Jones with his 2:09 debut.

Down with all this structured group training and pacing crap. We need more Americans running all out and going for it. All these 1:00-03 HM guys running 2:11-2:14 is a waste of talent.

unimpressed. wrote:

And yet sheep farming Dewi Griffiths goes with the leaders and nearly pulls a Steve Jones with his 2:09 debut.

Down with all this structured group training and pacing crap. We need more Americans running all out and going for it. All these 1:00-03 HM guys running 2:11-2:14 is a waste of talent.

63 guys averaging 65 mid pace twice is a waste of talent? Okayyyyyyy. Or maybe they’re in need it a big half PR. But you are right in that I feel like too many guys don’t go for it like they could (kinda like Mo Farah sandbagging almost every 5k race he runs).

Rosario is not a good coach IMO. They publish all their training online, and he often has guys doing dumb and pointless workouts like 30x400 at 10k pace

JEsbanhsvak wrote:

Rosario is not a good coach IMO. They publish all their training online, and he often has guys doing dumb and pointless workouts like 30x400 at 10k pace

Agreed, 20 x 400 m is all it takes to have indestructible strength.

unimpressed. wrote:

And yet sheep farming Dewi Griffiths goes with the leaders and nearly pulls a Steve Jones with his 2:09 debut.

Down with all this structured group training and pacing crap. We need more Americans running all out and going for it. All these 1:00-03 HM guys running 2:11-2:14 is a waste of talent.

Here is my question: How do these guys expect to run fast if the longest tempo they are doing before the race is like 15-16 miles? How do you expect to run 10 more miles at that pace when you haven't trained for it?

jhdchjv wrote:

JEsbanhsvak wrote:

Rosario is not a good coach IMO. They publish all their training online, and he often has guys doing dumb and pointless workouts like 30x400 at 10k pace

Agreed, 20 x 400 m is all it takes to have indestructible strength.

That, or a quality 5x18

Bottom line is they did it. Lots of people cap their 100% GMP workouts anywhere from 13-18 miles. 16 is in the middle of the road.

As far as 30 x 400 at Critical Velocity, it's a good early segment workout. Usually with very short rest, you get a solid 10k tempo effort without putting you in a hole.

vivalarepublica wrote:

unimpressed. wrote:

And yet sheep farming Dewi Griffiths goes with the leaders and nearly pulls a Steve Jones with his 2:09 debut.

Down with all this structured group training and pacing crap. We need more Americans running all out and going for it. All these 1:00-03 HM guys running 2:11-2:14 is a waste of talent.

Here is my question: How do these guys expect to run fast if the longest tempo they are doing before the race is like 15-16 miles? How do you expect to run 10 more miles at that pace when you haven't trained for it?

I mean they're doing 15-16 @ MP @ altitude in 120 mile weeks with another mid-week workout or two. You've run and trained for a marathon before right since you're asking that question? Rosario seems like a Hansons type coach all about cumulative fatigue but with more shorter intervals mixed into the marathon buildup. Anyways, what is the right number? Do you want 20-22 @ pace? The top Kenyans seem to do a lot of long runs at 90-95% MP. That's probably what their workouts come out to with a warmup + c/d w./ 15-16 @ pace.

Anyways, I thought this thread was about Scott Smith! He was due for a breakout. Been running a lot of tough courses and warm marathons. Clearly those are real factors to running a good time. He got cooler temps today but still some wind and ran a really good race. Good to see Faubs and Llano run well too. NAZ is really good for the sport. Public about their training and make it really easy to follow them on race day. Awesome work out there from all 3!

I do agree that there is more room for American runners to go 2:08-2:11 by having more people go for it. One factor has to be that two of the big domestic marathons, NYC & Boston, aren't the fastest. I think some faster times would have been run at the Trials had that race been somewhere with good weather. In 2012, in Houston, a lot of good races with everyone peaking for that one race on a fast course with good weather. Need to see something like that at future Olympic Trials. Yeah, there was more media attention (maybe) in LA but a lot of folks would have had a better chance to breakout running that race somewhere else.

vivalarepublica wrote:

How do you expect to run 10 more miles at that pace when you haven't trained for it?

A long tempo of 15 miles IS "training for it". You do not have to run the full race distance in practice in order to perform well. That's not how physiology works.

Pod wrote:

vivalarepublica wrote:

How do you expect to run 10 more miles at that pace when you haven't trained for it?

A long tempo of 15 miles IS "training for it". You do not have to run the full race distance in practice in order to perform well. That's not how physiology works.

True, but many posters here believe that because they read a few posts by Canova, they know how to train Americans (not themselves) to run 2:06

FightFor15 wrote:

Rosario seems like a Hansons type coach all about cumulative fatigue but with more shorter intervals mixed into the marathon buildup.

Rosario actually ran for the Hansons so his training style is very similar to the Hansons adapted to high elevation.

Seems like Rosario gets slightly talented athletes too (exclude Ritz here).

And from these results in appears that it is working. Great job all.

Kudos to the NAZ elite HOKA guys for there marathon performances.

To address the "16-miles at M.P."....the faster one is in the marathon, the harder that workout becomes. I coach a lot of 3hour- 2:50 type runners and that is a very manageable workout (many can hit marathon pace for nearly 18-20 miles in training) when you are in that time range or slower.

Get down to sub 2:18 pace (as a PR and faster) and that becomes a very, very hard workout to do on tired legs while doing other speedy workouts. Every workout pace becomes more critical as their marathon pace is closer to lactate threshold pace (this usually isn' the case with a 3 hour marathoner).

another factor to consider: These guys live and train in Flag at altitude...they go down to Camp Verde for a lot of the speed workout, but that longer stuff on Lake Mary Road is up pretty high!

When I ran for Hansons a lot of us used to crush "The Simulator" 16-miler at goal marathon pace or faster....it wasn't always the best workout indicator and I think sometimes a lot of us overdid it (usually in combo with a too fast 2 x6 mile workout at 5-10sec/mile faster than M.P. that followed it closely).

Great races and great coaching by Ben!

As a running fan, I just can't get excited about a group of 2:12 performances. I guess I would liken it to 28:xx in the 10k - a great time by all means, but not something a professional runner should be proud of.

What's impressive is coach Ben lead them to 2:12-2:13 all in the same race.

Remember, historically in the US (until the 2012 Trials) a 2:12 marathon ALWAYS made the US Olympic Team.

There are all sorts of 28:xx 10km guys that couldn't touch 2:12.

Not that exciting, but they're doing just as well as some higher powered groups' runners. That impresses me, even if the bar is low.

JEsbanhsvak wrote:

Rosario is not a good coach IMO. They publish all their training online, and he often has guys doing dumb and pointless workouts like 30x400 at 10k pace

30 x 400m is not a dumb and pointless workout as long as the main purpose is to run at lactic threshold. The rests in that kind of workout will not be so long so it gives a good stimuli to the body at LT-pace. The Portuguese very good marathoners sometimes used to do even 40-50 x 400s this way.

vivalarepublica wrote:

unimpressed. wrote:

And yet sheep farming Dewi Griffiths goes with the leaders and nearly pulls a Steve Jones with his 2:09 debut.

Down with all this structured group training and pacing crap. We need more Americans running all out and going for it. All these 1:00-03 HM guys running 2:11-2:14 is a waste of talent.

Here is my question: How do these guys expect to run fast if the longest tempo they are doing before the race is like 15-16 miles? How do you expect to run 10 more miles at that pace when you haven't trained for it?

Ask my marathoners. The best so far 2.07:38 and the others 2.08.43- 2.10.44. They just do LT-intervals 3000m at longest and special long runs with 10-40 min fast part in intervals or sustained. It really works! They are a living proof. :)