Daniels' Running Formula M Pace Typo?

Inconsistent wrote:

txRUNNERgirl wrote:

You lost me. My current VDOT is below 60 (49-50). Goal VDOT by January is 50-51. Peak mileage will be 75 mpw, but this week is 60. I don't know if that helps figure out the answer to my question or not.

I think I will play it by ear this Sunday depending how my legs feel.

I put your VDOT into my calculator. JD says your M pace is 7:20, while he recommends 7:17 for a 60 minute tempo run. Once again though, his M pace is very aggressive. However, I think 7:17 for a 60 minute tempo run makes sense if your LT pace is 6:55

Yeah, if it's supposed to be 12 miles at M pace, that's going to be tough just 2 days after the 3 X 2 mile T pace workout (plus the 24 X 200m on Tuesday). I think I could handle it if it wasn't the 3rd workout of the week. I think that's what is throwing me off, having 3 quality runs vs. 2. So maybe the 10% (6 miles at M) makes more sense in this case?

Smoove, do you think the emphasis on cruise intervals is good, increasing the time spent at LT, while dropping the concentration effort required?

I think it is great for physical conditioning. I do an absolute ton of cruise intervals for marathon training. It allows for a ton more volume in a given session, just as you say. A straight 20 minute tempo run gets me almost 4 miles of work and I'm done. I suspect that 6 x 1 mile or 3 x 2 miles gets me much more adaptation.

But I don't think it prepares you as well mentally. There's just something about hitting the 12 minute mark of a tempo run and starting to hurt and having to really pay attention to your breathing and form to lock down pace that prepares you for race day in a way that maybe only mile repeats at 5k pace does.

So I try to do a combination of cruise intervals, progression runs and straight tempo runs as part of my training, although it's been a long while since I went straight 20 minute tempo. All part of my getting soft in my old age.

It's definitely 20. He caps tempos at 10% in a single session. For evidence, just look at the 5k/10k plan. He would have a 40-50mpw runner going 8-10 miles at M pace during a long run.

For what it's worth, I find these runs to be grueling and they get me in to shape after a few of them. No idea why he doesn't include them in phase I base work. I try to run them throughout the year. Don't be afraid to take the first few slow and at reduced mileage.

To me the main drawback of cruise intervals is I hate to stop and start. But for sure the last mile of a straight tempo can be tough mentally.

Runrincerepeat wrote:

TBut for sure the last mile of a straight tempo can be tough mentally.

I actually find the second-to-last mile of a tempo to be the hardest. Which highlights the mental aspects of tempoing versus cruise intervals

txRUNNERgirl wrote:

What sucks is that JD used to post on LetsRun, but like many others, finally got sick of the trolls and left.

Trolls? Like you and Nikeman?

Yup, I was gonna say the same thing. He has 10 miles at M for 5/10k runners... That is super tough

darkwave wrote:

Runrincerepeat wrote:

TBut for sure the last mile of a straight tempo can be tough mentally.

I actually find the second-to-last mile of a tempo to be the hardest. Which highlights the mental aspects of tempoing versus cruise intervals

I am like that on cruise intervals. If I do 2x2miler the second one is easier it seems.

Jeremy R wrote:

Yup, I was gonna say the same thing. He has 10 miles at M for 5/10k runners... That is super tough

Is that in a 2Q or 3Q week? I would do 12-15 miles at M pace during marathon training, but only in a 2Q week. This week I've already done a R pace workout and a T pace workout.

The 5k/10k plan almost always has 3Q sessions in the phases that include workouts. Daniels alternates weekly long runs and M runs- still fairly long but shorter than a regular long run given he intensity.

Anecdotally, I have learned to respect the M run, especially early in the training cycle. I will either run them a vdot slow, a mile or two short, or drop my tempo for the week. They can be rugged, but they're great. As a marathoner, you will probably find them much easier than runners that focus on shorter distances.

I would rather do 5x1200 at I pace or a 20 minute steady tempo than 8 miles steady at M pace.

What is m pace? Is it a vdot estimate or the pace one can actually run a marathon in if ran today? For instance, I have a 62 vdot, which suggests a marathon in ~2:38 (6:04 pace). However, I don't train for the marathon specifically, and would be lucky to finish in 2:50 (6:30 pace). That's a large difference and would be even more dramatic for someone with a lower vdot. Seems like training at the right pace is paramount for Daniels schedules. If people are running at goal m pace instead of real m pace, of course a run of 8 miles at that pace is tough.

I ended up doing 1 mile w/u, 10 miles at M (7:22 average), 1 mile c/d. It was hard and not sure I could have done 12 at M. Normally that pace isn't as tough for me, but today it just about "felt" like a tempo or half marathon race pace. Again probably because it's my third workout of the week.