Eight weeks to BQ attempt - advice?

In my marathon buildup I typically do something like my last super big longrun 3 weeks before the race and then 2 weeks before the race I go out and try to run a big run at marathon pace. The first time I did this I thought I should surely be able to run 13.1 miles at my marathon pace. I was entirely wrong. I couldn't keep the pace and I had to back off at something like 10 miles. Without repeating my mistakes I still found that I felt the same way during my other marathon buildups a few weeks out.

My point: Your training will not have culminated in your peak condition until the day of the marathon, so it's okay to not be in race day shape a few weeks before the marathon. Relax. Let it all come together for race day. You're still doing some really hard training and you won't get its full benefit for a few weeks.

I recommend a two week cycle of two primary workouts per week that goes something like this:

Week 1, Workout 1: 6-8x1600 at 10k or half marathon pace

Week 1, Workout 2: Big long run.

Week 2, Workout 1: 3-5x5000 at close to race pace

Week 2, Workout 2: Steady state 10-13 mile run

This will pretty much make you a boss on race day. Also, this is similar to training followed by Canova and a few Africans, so don't think it's just some random guy on the internet having success with it.

Based off your 5K and Daniels' calculator, about 6:42.

These were my splits on my 14-mile race pace attempt today. It was pretty warm and humid out, though not oppressively so, and I expended some energy in a headwind for a while:

1- 7:12

2 - 7:15

3 - 7:12

4 - 7:10

5 - 7:16

6 - 7:14

7 - 7:22

8 - 7:10

9 - 7:17

10 - 7:35 (included water break)

11 - 7:26

12 - 7:41

13 - 8:12

14 - 8:30

this is a joke, right? we're being trolled?

darthyoda wrote:

this is a joke, right? we're being trolled?

How so?

IndyJ wrote:

darthyoda wrote:

this is a joke, right? we're being trolled?

How so?

so you start dropping off significantly with that 7:4x mile, okay, maybe you can rebound the next one, slow down significantly some more, and stubborn enough to go one more where you're off a cliff? or I misread the goal of your workout and those were cool down miles and not bonk miles

darthyoda wrote:

IndyJ wrote:

How so?

so you start dropping off significantly with that 7:4x mile, okay, maybe you can rebound the next one, slow down significantly some more, and stubborn enough to go one more where you're off a cliff? or I misread the goal of your workout and those were cool down miles and not bonk miles

They were bonk miles, but I'm not sure I understand the objection. I was a mile from home. I should have just folded tents at that point? I don't understand.

I'd probably shoot for 7:45 mile pace if I were you at this point. Which race are you running?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM wrote:

I'd probably shoot for 7:45 mile pace if I were you at this point. Which race are you running?

Indianapolis.

I'm not shooting for a 7:45 pace. There's no reason to shoot for a 7:45 pace.

Live to run wrote:

At 40 years old, anyone who wants to BQ convincingly is not really going to get it done on any less than 80 mpw.

False assertion. I clocked sub-3 on 45 mpw 6 months after turning 40.

In my haste I feel like I came off as a bit of a d*ck in my last post.

I think I'm faster than 7:45, two months from now.

it's cool I hear you - didn't realize you had 2 months. I was thinking it was one month like Chicago which is what I'm headed to.

IndyJ wrote:

They were bonk miles, but I'm not sure I understand the objection. I was a mile from home. I should have just folded tents at that point? I don't understand.

For what it's worth, IndyJ, I also have no idea what his point is. I've had had plenty of medium-long and long runs where I have bonked just like that. Hot weather, low fuel, dehydration ... whatever ... I don't worry too much about it. You had a nice pace for 11 miles.

If you have any interest, when I get back to my office, I can post my entire 16-week marathon training log (12 actual completed, 4 planned). Since we have a similar goal, it might offer a few ideas. I based my plan on Pfitzinger's marathon schedules, but a couple persistent injuries have forced me to scale back quite a bit.

IndyJ wrote:

So ... what should I do the next 7-8 weeks, including the taper, to give myself the best chance to BQ? I feel like it's in reach if I play my cards right.

Just wondering why you think a 3:10 is within reach? Have you run a recent 41 min 10K? Or 1:31 half marathon? Because that's what's required here.

Used to be Rono wrote:

IndyJ wrote:

So ... what should I do the next 7-8 weeks, including the taper, to give myself the best chance to BQ? I feel like it's in reach if I play my cards right.

Just wondering why you think a 3:10 is within reach? Have you run a recent 41 min 10K? Or 1:31 half marathon? Because that's what's required here.

I time trialed myself at 40:40 in a 10K a few weeks ago - June 24.

IndyJ wrote:

I time trialed myself at 40:40 in a 10K a few weeks ago - June 24.

Just curious ... have you done much racing while seriously training? For me, there is a huge difference between what I can run in a race, and what I can manage in an all-out solo time trial.

For example, all my Lactate Threshold runs this year had been at 6:40/mi, maximum of five miles. LT pace is defined as approximately "race pace for a one-hour race." Those 6:40s were very challenging -- dry heaves at the end, even.

But a few weeks ago I raced 15K -- 6:26 per mile. (Literally a one-hour race -- 59:59!). I know that I can always count on "race day magic," so lackluster training paces don't discourage me. For others, this isn't the case.

Allen1959 wrote:

... For others, this isn't the case.

Meant to say "for SOME others ..." Plenty of folks experience race day magic the same as I do.

OP here. Did my race pace run again today. After bonking bad last week, I finished the 14 at 7:10, closing at 7:07, 7:03, 7:03, 6:53.

That's more like it.

IndyJ wrote:

I didn't train particularly well for the 3:40. I had gotten back into running outdoors for the first time in a few years and had kind of went ahead and signed up for the marathon as a lark when I just kept extending my long runs.

Agree with poster who said you should simple prepare for a 3:20. You're not in the right shape, you should be able to EASILY maintain your goal pace for 10-12 miles at this point. You've got 2 options: Run your goal pace and bonk HARD at mile 14 and hobble in a broken man to a 3:45, or run a very smart race for 13.1 miles, maybe at 8:00/mile, and try and negative split with a solid 7:30/mile on the back and come away with a 3:20-3:25 in order to get a solid outing under your belt and be mentally prepared to get after that BQ next year.