My Journey From a 17:30 5K to a 15:30K. Follow along, contribute, bash, or just ignore.

You mentioned problems with your body, where you are having hip and achilles issues.

Do you do any running warm-up drills?

If not, then you definitely should. You should be doing 10-15 mins of running drills before each workout. Drills: A-skips, B-skips, C-skips, high knees, 100 and up, butt kicks, etc. Those drills will definitely open up your hips, and help with speed and form.

Also, You don't mention anything about hill sprints, which will give you the same speed benefits as track repeats, and the workout will strengthen your achilles( and back mechanics). You will see a huge increase in your speed and strength by doing 5-10 x 10-12 second hill sprints.

I look at those drills and workouts as mandatory elements that should never be skipped.

I think I really good idea to put a foundation down for the next year would be to train for a fall half marathon over the summer.

The volume will be Mid-High but the intensity should be Mid-Low very tolerable and and easy way to get in more mileage and set yourself for a good 5k in the not to far future.

Following a Canova Build up you would have

4 weeks of introduction which involves Speed First so 2 weeks would look like

During these first two weeks you increase the mileage as well.

Sunday Long run

Monday: easy run + 5 x hills sprints

Tuesday easy run

Wednesday: Mid long

Thursday easy + 5x hill sprints

Friday easy

Saturday Easy

Next two weeks you continue to build up mileage and introduce easy workouts. In reality should be around your close to peak mileage you would like to run at around week 5 or 6. So if that is around 80 miles a week in 10 runs you would get there and most likely be tired in the beginning but then adapt as you maintained that throughout the summer and continued to increase your ability to extendyour specific endurance (Half marathon Pace.

So next two weeks would look like.

Sunday Long run

Monday: easy run AM. Easy run Pm + 5 x hills sprints

Tuesday Fartlek run

Wednesday: A.M easy run P.M Mid long

Thursday easy

Friday Tempo 15 min @ Marathon 3 min cruise 10 minute @ half Marathon

Saturday: A.M easy P.M easy

The next 6 weeks of fundamental basically Follows the same pattern but it give you the opportunity experiment with your long run and Also extend your ability to run that Half Marathon pace.

A good book to buy to get a good map for this training is Brad Hudsons Run faster from 5k-Marathon book.

I do not know if this is the answer you wanted to hear but I am advocating that you train for a half marathon because it is very closely related increasing your lactic Threshold and overall Aerobic capacity. As a distance runner you are going to make the greatest improvements in performance by increasing these two things.

Thank you. A couple of you mentioned hill sprints. I live in a city without any hills. I have to drive about 45 minutes to get to a bridge that could serve that purpose. Would a parking garage do just as well? I'm considering adding those short sprints in the next cycle.

before I get too old wrote:

Thank you. A couple of you mentioned hill sprints. I live in a city without any hills. I have to drive about 45 minutes to get to a bridge that could serve that purpose. Would a parking garage do just as well? I'm considering adding those short sprints in the next cycle.

A parking garage could work, depending on how steep the incline is. The incline should have a good steepness to it, so the hamstrings can get a meaningful workout.

I would say search around your area for a decent grass hill, or you could even do the workout on a treadmill.

If you can't find an incline for the hill sprint workout, then do a lot of strides after each workout. Doing 8-10 strides at 90 percent max effort will do a lot for your speed.

Dropping this in here for my own reference. That poster is also trying to break a 5K barrier, although in her case it seems to be a lack of endurance.

I think speed is my limiting factor but we'll see.

Week 4

Monday: 4.5 miles

Tuesday: 7 miles

Wednesday: 7 miles

Thursday: 7 miles

Friday: 8 x 400m workout w/1 min. rest, 2 x 80 yds, 2 x 50 yds

Saturday: 3.8 miles

Sunday: 11 miles easy with my wife

Mileage: 44

I didn't find an extra gear this week for my 400s but that workout has become increasingly easier. I am hitting 79s with more fluidity and less pain in my achilles and hip area which I take to be a very good sign. I recorded my 200m splits this time and came up with an interesting discovery. I'm going through 200 in about 36 or 37 and finishing in 79. Is that too much decay? Then I noticed on one of the repeats that if I hit 40 at 200 I was able to run 78-79 much more comfortably.

This week marked the end of phase I. I'm going to jump into a mile race next week for fun and see where I'm at. Then I'm going to focus on some longer tempo stuff...marathon-pace workouts while doing sprints a couple times each week after easy runs just to make sure I don't lose acquired speed.

I'm also planning to bump weekly mileage to 50.

Try to run as even as possible on the 400s....36-37 is to fast...better with 39-40 first 200.

The Pro

Isn't 15:30 going to require 75 second avg 400 splits, for 12 1/2 laps? If so, 36/37 200 splits would be about right but finishing in 79s isn't. You may need to go easier on the wife

I disagree with you in regards to steady state running and I would say I disagree with Daniels, except that he's not as anti steady state as you think. If you describe it as marathon pace running, then yes, it's too much to be doing regularly. There is a sweeter spot that is a little slower than marathon pace while still being much faster than most people's easy pace. A threshold run has you teeter over the aerobic line while a steady state puts you pleasantly on the aerobic side of the line. Where I will agree with you, though, is that this kind of training is super helpful for marathon training. When it comes to 5k training the workout helps your overall aerobic ability, but isn't specific to the 5k.

Your argument about lactic acid does not make sense, though. If you want to build and process lactic acid, then go run some really hard hill intervals. Most speedwork is for VO2max work or building the right muscoskeletal system to handle the speeds. Intervals aren't really what you should be doing if you care about practicing processing lactate. Threshold/tempo runs put you in an uncomfortable spot to process some lactate during it and, but the benefit of the workout doesn't really have to do with the lactate per se. You're just getting used to the difficulty level and a pace closer to race paces that you have to sustain. Most distance coaches would tell you that lactate is the enemy to your ability to train at high quality and high volume. It means acidosis in your body that fatigues your whole system. Just because many common 5k workouts skirt a lactate line does not mean lactate is or should be the goal of any of the workouts.

before I get too old wrote:

Monday: 4.5 miles

Tuesday: 7 miles

Wednesday: 7 miles

Thursday: 7 miles

Friday: 8 x 400m workout w/1 min. rest, 2 x 80 yds, 2 x 50 yds

Saturday: 3.8 miles

Sunday: 11 miles easy with my wife

Are these runs around easy pace or moderate/steady.marathon pace? E pace or M pace in Daniels terminology. Also, do they drift into LT territory or are you disciplined?

J.S - Are there workouts that don't require specific paces that will help me as a beginner trying to break 19 minute 5k? You haven't commented on my thread :(

wilmisth wrote:

before I get too old wrote:

Monday: 4.5 miles

Tuesday: 7 miles

Wednesday: 7 miles

Thursday: 7 miles

Friday: 8 x 400m workout w/1 min. rest, 2 x 80 yds, 2 x 50 yds

Saturday: 3.8 miles

Sunday: 11 miles easy with my wife

Are these runs around easy pace or moderate/steady.marathon pace? E pace or M pace in Daniels terminology. Also, do they drift into LT territory or are you disciplined?

I've been running around 8:00-8:30 pace on non-workout days. So, easy pace.

before I get too old wrote:

I've been running around 8:00-8:30 pace on non-workout days. So, easy pace.

Thanks. You're a lot faster than me (I haven't raced but would guess high 20:xx) so am using this thread for inspiration - it's a good read so far.

As you're doing a block periodisation your weeks are very consistent: 1 long, 1 reps, 4-5 easy (or some moderate/steady). Given that you're not working towards a single goal race, do you think it would work to mix things up more? (E.g. 2 tempos, 1 intervals, 1 long, 1 steady, 2 easy.) Or are you convinced about the block approach? Interested to hear thoughts either way.

wilmisth wrote:

before I get too old wrote:

I've been running around 8:00-8:30 pace on non-workout days. So, easy pace.

Thanks. You're a lot faster than me (I haven't raced but would guess high 20:xx) so am using this thread for inspiration - it's a good read so far.

As you're doing a block periodisation your weeks are very consistent: 1 long, 1 reps, 4-5 easy (or some moderate/steady). Given that you're not working towards a single goal race, do you think it would work to mix things up more? (E.g. 2 tempos, 1 intervals, 1 long, 1 steady, 2 easy.) Or are you convinced about the block approach? Interested to hear thoughts either way.

I trained that way for many years but it only got me so far. Three workouts a week is a bit much for me now. I can better recover with one just one workout per week, especially while increasing the mileage. This block periodization scheme is a kind of an open experiment though so we'll see.

Excited to see how the race goes. Amazing how racing can make you run faster.

Time for an update on this thread.

wilmisth wrote:

Time for an update on this thread.

Racing the mile tomorrow night. I had a cutback week where I took a few days off (family travel) and then on Friday did a little race sharpening with some 200s working on form and relaxation. I will update after the race.

before I get too old wrote:

wilmisth wrote:

Are these runs around easy pace or moderate/steady.marathon pace? E pace or M pace in Daniels terminology. Also, do they drift into LT territory or are you disciplined?

I've been running around 8:00-8:30 pace on non-workout days. So, easy pace.

I like your overall plan, but would mix up the 400 workout and include some 800-1200s and lengthen the recovery IF necessary to get HR back to 120. Once you get consistently over 50 miles a week you will make a jump to the next level. Good luck.

Raced a mile last night.

5:02

The splits were 75, 76, 77, 74

This was a run on a track against good competition. Winning time was around 4:27-4:28. There was a mid-pack pacer taking us around in 75s so I followed although I felt a bit uneasy about hitting the 800 mark in 2:31. The last lap was definitely the most painful. I knew I had to come up with something special to break 5 at that point (which was my goal). The split with 200m to go was 4:25 which meant I had to run at least 34 seconds for that last deuce , something I haven't been able to do even in training for ONE REP and full recovery.

I have lost a lot of my speed. Hoping to get it back.

But I can't be too disappointed. 5:02 is an equivalent performance to 17:30 which is what I ran in a 5K last month.