Is Said Aouita the greatest villain in track and field history?

in summary wrote:

Calculo keeps posting like he gets paid by the sentence fragment and generally reminds everyone of his stupidity. But, if calculo typed his posts evenly, with perfect pacing, and typed at his theoretical potential, -> still would have sucked ! !

And that just about "sums" it up....10/10

Stinky Ad Nuseam Posts wrote:

calculo wrote:

you really have no clue about medicine

And you do? 😁. Btw, your material is getting old...get some new stuff or stick to playing bingo at the senior centers.

Yeah, the long and nasty posts really ruin a thread. There should be a length limit. It's your perogative to post, but they are getting increasingly bad and increasingly long.

in summary wrote:

So, to summarize,

Covette and said88 talk circles around each other but never acknowledge the others main claims while debunking straw man arguments they make for each other

Said88 posts aoitoua's pr progression in defense of his/her idol but ironically does more to prove covette's point by showing how he dropped massive time coincidentally after moving to Italy

Calculo keeps posting like he gets paid by the sentence fragment and generally reminds everyone of his stupidity. But, if calculo typed his posts evenly, with perfect pacing, and typed at his theoretical potential, -> still would have sucked ! !

Your previous summary was spot on but this one not so much. I honestly don't know what said88's main points are in this thread apart from calling me a moron, racist, a woman, 15 years old etc. Well other than, as you point out, repetitively posting Aouita's suspiciously mediocre and stagnant pbs from 80 - 82 which only goes to prove really Aouita's suspiciously mediocre and stagnant pbs from 80 - 82 which represents most of my argument. And the Australian scandal, which said88 still hasn't answered after over a week of going back and forth, apart from making not so subtle doping allegations against Coe in particular, as well as Cram and Ovett.

in summary wrote:

Calculo keeps posting like he gets paid by the sentence fragment and generally reminds everyone of his stupidity. But, if calculo typed his posts evenly, with perfect pacing, and typed at his theoretical potential, -> still would have sucked ! !

This is clearly true. And notice in all the wall of text and numbers Calculo posted that he completely ignores the Zurich 84 mile race of Aouita which I posted and that clearly proves he was never in the form to run a 36 second 300m and would clearly have been destroyed by Coe (and Cram and a healthy Ovett) in LA.

Coevett again is talking wrong things (if it's knowingly, than this is called lying). I have not called him a racist. I have not called him a women (?). I have not called(!) him to be 15 years old.

(Here is the substantial nazi-Argument from Mr (?) Coevett:

"Yeah, yeah, I get that you are German and therefore you feel it an outrage that anybody who disagrees with your opinion is able to express his disagreement without being banned, perhaps put in a re-education camp or similar. This is an American owned forum, and besides, Germany still doesn't have complete control over the thoughts of 400 million Europeans. .")

I have given his PBs and other achievements as accurate as possible. If this is something bad, than it tells a lot. If it's better to happily add 3 seconds - OK, no more comments needed.

said88 wrote:

Coevett again is talking wrong things (if it's knowingly, than this is called lying). I have not called him a racist. I have not called him a women (?). I have not called(!) him to be 15 years old.

.

LOL, anyone reading this thread can see that you did. Several times claiming I was dissing Aouita for 'ideological reasons' You twice asked me if I was over 15 years old. You asked if I was a he or a she. I assume you're a hardcore Muslim like Aouita and hence you regard accusing your opponent of being a woman to be an insult.

Meanwhile, here is an article about another Australian runner who made accusations against Aouita - Melissa Rollison. She apparently made the claims long after Aouita had already fled back to Morocco, which contradicts the argument of the earlier poster who put forward the view that athletes were unhappy at Aouita being selected as coach rather than a more popular Australian.

"Rollison had earlier alleged that former Australian national distance coach Aouita had suggested she take human growth hormone to reach the top of her sport.

"He talked about it every day," Rollison said.

"I said right at the start that I wasn't interested and he was like 'everyone else is on it, so why wouldn't you want to do it?'

"It (training with Aouita) ruined three years of my life."

Australian sports officials will investigate the latest claims.

Rollison's claims support Victorian runner Mark Fountain, who initially made drug allegations against Aouita in 2004 in a letter to the Australian Sports Commission (ASC).

Aouita's two-year reign as Australia's distance running coach ended the same year and the Moroccan Olympic 5000m champion has not returned to Australia since."

Coevett wrote:

said88 wrote:

Coevett again is talking wrong things (if it's knowingly, than this is called lying). I have not called him a racist. I have not called him a women (?). I have not called(!) him to be 15 years old.

.

LOL, anyone reading this thread can see that you did. Several times claiming I was dissing Aouita for 'ideological reasons' You twice asked me if I was over 15 years old. You asked if I was a he or a she. I assume you're a hardcore Muslim like Aouita and hence you regard accusing your opponent of being a woman to be an insult.

You'rte reading comprehensen really is terrible.

Following some crude ideologi (My heros are the best and have never done anything wrong, if they have not won something than it was because they were injured, too old, run tactically stupid, all in front of them were doped - but definitely not because someone else just wwas better) must mean racism? Obviously not. I've added a ? when I spoke of Mr ... just because I don't know your gender. And I have asked if you are under 15 - because your reasoning is on a level of someone of this age.

So again: I have definitely not called him a racist. I have definitely not called him a women (?). I have definitely not called(!) him to be 15 years old.

Coevett is a proved liar - at least 10 times just in this thread. And this because of some races which were run more than 30 years back.

So you ask me twice if I am over 15 in order to insult me but that is not the same as calling me a 15 year old. Are you a complete and utter cretin?

Your reasoning is on a level of a child, that's why I have asked provocantly.

When you next time claim that I have done this or that: please give the necessary comment.

When I think about the insults which I'm accused to:

You women you!

You 15 year old!

Sounds really bad.

I have a few concrete questions for you, Coevett:

1) Why do you think Peter Elliott could have won the double in Seoul? He was beaten by Aouita in 87 over 1500m, in 88 over 800m (and for sure also in Seoul while Aouita was injured) and in 89 2 times over the Mile.

(For sure he COULD, but why is this some probable scenario that you think it is worth for posting).

2) Why do you write again and again that Aouita has "dodged" Coe in Zürich 84 when you don't know it?

3) Why do you write that Aouita almost "only" has done time trials when most of his races in his prime were not time trials?

4) Why do you claim to have seen a race when you never ever have seen it?

5) Why do you write again and again that Aouita has had problems in beating 1:50/3:40 when he has run 1:47/3:37 in every year, has beaten top-level runners, has also tried the longer events and even has beaten for example Carlos Lopes in cross country?

6) Why do you misinterpret so many easy phrases just in the way that it completely supports your point that Aouita is such a terrible person?

7) Why do you say that the two races from Zürich 84, which you have linked, show that Aouita was the one who "dodged", when this obviously is not to see from a race Video?

8) Why do you first try to lower all of Aouita's performances, and later you speek about "superhuman efforts"?

10) Didn't you know that Aouita was the first under 7:30 for 3000m?

11) Why do you constantly write that Aouita has choosen to run this or that event at a specific championship just because what ever, when you don't know anything about it?

12) Isn't it a sign of some courage for you when someone decides to race the 800m at the Olympics, when it's almost sure that he would have won the 5000m if he had competed?

13) Isn't it a sign of some courage to race the 800m at the Olympics one year after setting the 5000m WR, 2 years after beating all the best over 10000m, a few months before winning a great battle over 3000m at the World indoors?

14) Why you try to lower a 1:43.86 from Aouita by adding a "barely" but don't do the same for a 1:44.81 from Ovett?

15) Why is it normal for you when Ovett puts a runner 1 meter adrift at the Olympics and puts his hands on the shoulders of two others to try to get his way? How would you say if Aouita has done this?

16) Why do you write as if the Soviet and East German runners in Moscow 80 were on the same level than the best of the rest of the world, when none of them could achieve really good times (for sure also on the protected home turf as you called it).

17) Why is a simple statistic about the presence of the world record holder in the final indicative for the quality of the final? But statistics about all performers totally unnecessary?

18) Why is my totally insignificant personal opinion regarding the doping allegations on Aouita important for you that you ask a few times?

19) Why is my statement regarding the Kratochvilova case some indication for you that I'm some sort of doping supporter? Don't you see a big difference in her case and - for example - the Lance Armstrong case?

20) What do you think how it was possible for Mo Farah to transform in his late twenties from an runner who usually lost almost half a straight on the last lap to an almost unbeatable running machine who bettered Steve Cram's 1500m NR by almost a second and also could run a world class Half-Marathon and a very good Marathon?

I haven't got time to answer most your 'points', and especially as I've answered them before, several of them repeatedly. But as you're such a cretin, I'll post a quick response at these ones as they take your reasoning to a new level of stupidity.

1/ Because it's kind of hard to outsprint the most doped up cheat in history when you've spent the previous week working manual labour in a Sheffield steel factory. As far as I know, Elliot gave himself a bit more time off in 88 but was still working largely full time. He got better towards the end of the 80's as he became more of a full time athlete. He was beaten in 88 by Aouita when he had injury problems, and in Seoul when he had far worse injury problems than Aouita (and unlike Aouita, he didn't cry like a baby and go home, he fought for a silver medal in the 1500m). The question you and other readers should be asking is - why is it ridiculous to suggest that a guy who could run 1:44 as a teen whilst starting as a steel worker couldn't go on to beat a guy who could rarely break 1:50 as a 22 year old while at an elite sporting institute? When Elliot gave athletics his all and was injury free, he ran 1:42 despite being nearly 30, while Aouita barely ducked under 1:44. :D

Aouita was a spent force in the 1500m by 88.

16/ Are you the biggest cretin on this board? So Kirov and Straub were useless even though they didn't run on the European circuit and always finished highly in championships? Olef Beyer's 1:43 in Prague 78 was one of the fastest times in history. Doping does make a difference. Imagine if Aouita had never ran on the circuit, and we had only his times from competitions. A great at 5000m for sure, but hardly worth remembering at any other distance.

19/ Because Kratochvilova was clearly the most doped up female in athletics history. You just have to see how she looks now as compared to back then to realize that. I don't know for sure if she was 100% aware she was being doped, but you're a complete moron if you think a female body like hers (and times like hers) aren't produced by steroids. And yes, that makes you a doping supporter you immoral piece of dog mess.

20/ Since when have I defended Mo Farah you asshat? Nearly everybody here assumes Farah's times are suspect on the basis of his 'transformation' but I've argued here specifically that his record is nowhere near as suspect as Aouita's. Farah was a world class athlete regularly reaching finals. Some of his success can be attributed to the level of competition dropping off. The only suspect performance that really stands out is his 3:28 1500m, which was a 6 second improvement in an event he rarely runs. But he did have a 3:26 to drag him there. Having said, that I'm not defending Farah. But the equivalent of Farah to Aouita would be him not only suddenly winning gold medals but recording 1:42 3:25, 12:30 25:50 and sub 2 hour marathon times. Oh, and subsequently getting a coaching role post retirement and being chased out of town after pressurizing his athletes to take peds.

I'm not responding to any of your infantile defences of Aouita until you actually mention the Australian scandal. I haven't got time to argue with an idiot. Are you a Turk on welfare who spends all day typing crap funded for by the pathetic cucks who have paid for their country to be colonized by hostile Muslims?

You obviously havn't understood the questions at all. Just your answers to 19) and 20) !. No connection to the question at all, wrong assumptions and so on. In school one should say: go to your place: 6.

And your reading comprehension is at most at a 15 years old level.

You are a liar, a proofed liar Coeovett - just in this thread you did it at least 10 times.

Guys, you're just going around in circles now.

I have purposely stayed out of this discussion, although posted my feelings about the 2 athletes on the other thread about Aouita.

I generally enjoy reading both of your comments on this site, and agree with most of what both of you have to say. But you need to agree to disagree on this one.

It seems that the real point of disagreement is whether or not Aouita used drugs? Answer - we will never know for sure, same as for almost every athlete. The allegations from Australia are somewhat damaging, but they are not proof.

Ben Johnson is a convicted doper and as such a greater villain. There is evidence, in the form of a Stasi file (has this been corroborated by an independent body?) that Marita Koch doped, and she was my favourite female athlete growing up, so I guess she is also a greater villain than Aouita, sadly.

Although again there is no proof, I would suggest that the likelihood of El G doping is far more likely than Aouita.

Deanouk wrote:

Guys, you're just going around in circles now.

I have purposely stayed out of this discussion, although posted my feelings about the 2 athletes on the other thread about Aouita.

I generally enjoy reading both of your comments on this site, and agree with most of what both of you have to say. But you need to agree to disagree on this one.

It seems that the real point of disagreement is whether or not Aouita used drugs? Answer - we will never know for sure, same as for almost every athlete. The allegations from Australia are somewhat damaging, but they are not proof.

No, deano, the point of disagreement is not whether Aouita doped or not.

My only point is that Coevett constantly, in almost all his posts, just talks wrong things (I can give many examples), makes totally unsubstantial claims and can't put just one stat correct. If this is done knowingly, it's called lying.

He has lost all his credibility. And his reading comprehension is on a level of a child (I also can give many examples). I know that Ventolin enormously exaggerates, is not able to agree when he is wrong and has had a terrible attitude talking to posters who disagree (he has got a little bit better). But at least there sometimes is some rationality (yes, and I will definitely not deny it just because it's Ventolin - when the stupidest person on earth claims that 1+1=2, I will not disagree) in his posts. Not so in the ones of our friend Coevett.

And he don't even understands the difference between an opinion and a fact.

At the moment he definitely is not able for just a last rest of rationality. You only have to mention the name Kratochvilova, and he gets mad.

Not one single point where I have just showed that he is talking a lot of rubbish he has done a final word on it and just agreed. Even worse: usually he has written the same bullshit again (absolute same than Bad Wigins).

I'm not even here to defend Aouita in any case. There are good reasons that he has used illegal methods and I definitely will not deny this.

But when your ONLY intention is to put it like he is a doper and close to a murder and you are not anymore interested in the facts at all (again: if true or not is not anymore important, it has to look like it is true and therfore even changing of the statistics seems to be a good method), then you lose all, definitely all of your credibility.

This was my last post in this unbelievable stupid conversation. The last post of Coevett to all my questions shows very clearly that rationalty is not possible anymore. I can't understand it but I have to accept.

Deanouk wrote:I have purposely stayed out of this discussion.

is this a joke ???

we are talking early-mid '80s

what contemporary opinion of that date you going to offer ?

is this a joke ???

Cram woud crushed coe in his '85 shape

is this a joke ???

he was ill/injured/rubbish by games

weren't you watching build up in '84 ?

Cram was rubbish !

utter drivel !!!

Cram ran 1'43.6 in '83

he never cracked 1'46 in '84 !!!

how on earth can you post drivel that Cram was in anywhere close to '83 shape in games ???

Cram in brussels 3'31.6 was at worst, if ideal pacing/drafting

~ 3'30-flat/low

utter drivel

he never cracked 1'46 in '84

he was rubbish in '84

drivel

he coudn't crack 1'46 in '84

no speed

nonsense

he coudn't crack 1'46 in '84

he was in crap shape in '84 games

nonsense

Aouita in 36.1 / 3'34.8 wouda crushed coe !!!

no

it wouda crushed coe as well, but not just as bad as Aouita hammering off 36.1/3'34.8

it's crap

offer vid

no

10m

no

500m of drafting

no

3'30-low

eh ???

he got crushed in 800 !!!

so which grown-up at the time cared ?

no

coe never had to run prelim coupla hours before

i'd offer Ryun here at least 1s just for prelim :

it can be

nonsense

it's symptoms are are far more aggressive & worse

utter drivel

different disease

how inept are you ???

utter drivel

glandular fever had test from '30s

no

he was finished by '68

is this a joke ???

ancient

no relevance today

is this a joke ?

'78 - on, long before scare

impress board

what do you know about scare in '80 ?

what do you know about transfusions in '80s ???

cheap to buy blood in late-'70s/early-'80s

easy-doping

nonsense

what brit hospital ???

if playing game-of-"reindeer-blood",

it wouda been cheap/easy in nowheres such as the

Macolin

drivel

easy access commodity back then

utter drivel !!!

he claims he got it from feral cats in rome !!!

utter joke !!!

nonsense

2 totally different diseases

is this a joke ???

huge detriment to an athlete's biography

NEVER

NEVER

test +ve for

Toxoplasmosis !!!

Wtf is wrong with you guys, seriously?!?!

1)Said88 and coevette: let it go. You're not going to agree on anything. Walk away. You only cause yourself more trouble and angst continuing with this.

2) calculo: seek help. I'm being very serious. Your excessively long posts are no longer amusing. Please stop.

Where in Italy was Aouita based and does anyone know which doctors he used?

Did he train with the Italian runners e.g. Cova, Panetta?

Coeuita wrote:

Where in Italy was Aouita based and does anyone know which doctors he used?

Did he train with the Italian runners e.g. Cova, Panetta?

He was based in Sienna, and his coach was Enrico Dionisi. His doctor in Sienna was Aldo Morbidi.

I don't know if he trained with Cova or Panetta, but according to Renato Canova himself, Aouita did train sometimes at the Italian National Center of Tirrenia, which is not far from Sienna.

There is a link with Cova and Panetta because according to a 1986 Sports Illustrated article, Aouita preferred to train on the west coast of Italy at an altitude track in Tyrennia. And according to an interview with Renato Canova in Runners World, he (Canova) while coaching Cova and Panetta set up a permanent training camp at Tyrennia. I assume therefore that Aouita did at least sometimes train with them.

https://www.si.com/vault/1986/06/23/629216/two-aces-on-a-collision-course

https://www.runnersworld.com/website-only/renato-canova-speaks