Is Said Aouita the greatest villain in track and field history?

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6 years ago 06/13/2017 5:31am EDT

re: calculo

@calculus - are you taking the piss?

Ovett had broken the wr at end of 83 and was running into form before LA. Many considered him favourite. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. He lost to Cram by a vest after being tired from wr and amother race. The same Cram you claim would have beaten Coe in LA if in his 83 form.

Nobody expected Cram to break the WR in Nice. All eyes were on Cruz, which Aouita knew was a joke.

The 1500 carried huge prestige. In the 80s, 5000m was full of failed 1500 guys or past prime like Walker.

You accuse Coe of being a blood doper yet igmore Aouita who virtually admitted it. Makes me suspect your hero Ryun was a doper too and you are similarly o.k. with it.

6 years ago 06/15/2017 4:14pm EDT

re: Charles the Hammer

Where is Said88? The cat got your tongue? Well I guess you don't have any answers and now accept that Aouita's legacy is built on highly dubious sand.

Another suspicious thing about Aouita is he seems to have change his date of birth over the last few years, presumably to make his sudden improvement in his mid twenties look slightly less suspicious/obvious. Older articles and his Wikipedia state that he was born in 1959, but more recent ones say 1960 making him around the same age as Cram.

Anyway, I found this book on Aouita the other day and even though the authour is ridiculously credulous it does make it quite obvious how implausible Aouita's transformation from a 1:50 800m/ 3:40 1500m runner into the greatest athlete in history (in the space of a year or two after setting foot in Italy) was.

"In 1979, Said produced excellent times at 5,000 meters and 1,500 meters of 13:48.5 and 3:42.3 respectively. However when he raced the African Championships in Dakar, he only finished ninth in the 1,500 meters in a disappointing 3:49.0. This was well behind the great Kenyan Mike Boit's 3:39.9.

Despite this setback, Aouita continued to test his speed and in 1980 became a regular competitor over 800 meters. Now we were seeing the early signs of the man who would one day become regarded as having the best range in track running. He posted a national record of 1:47.8 in Grasse, France and immediately in his next race ran a huge personal best of 3:37.08 over 1,500 meters in Paris. These times were not going to allow Aouita to contend for Olympic medals but they were big, positive steps forward.

A most difficult period was then endured, as no noticeable improvements were made throughout 1981 and 1982. Said would either race in European 'B' races and be highly competitive, or be blown away by the elite in the 'A' races. He was soon able to settle in Italy, where much of his training would be conducted with the benefits of an Italian base as opposed to a Morroccan one, soon becoming apparent.

Aouita had been hovering around the 1:50 and 3:40 standard during most of his races but after a tremendous training period in the winter of 1982/83 he returned to racing, a different athlete. Firstly there was a 2:16.9 over 1,000 meters, which sliced more than two seconds from his national record. Two races later came a sensational 3:32.54 at 1,500 meters. This four second improvement brought him up to an international standard. Then, twenty two days later he recorded an amazing 1:44.38 for 800 meters. This time the improvement was more than two seconds. Suddenly the Moroccan was truly world class."

https://www.amazon.com/Moroccan-Success-Kada-Greg-Rowlerson-ebook/dp/B0031MA4EQ/

6 years ago 06/15/2017 4:41pm EDT

re: Coevett

Found a fair comment by Deano from a YouTube video of Aouita's that I very much agree with :

"Overated in my opinion, and has that drug incident in Australia hanging over him!? Certainly a great 5000m runner and one of the most versatile athletes ever, but wouldn't be on anyone's top 5 list over 800m or 1500m with just 2 bronze medals and one WR (at 1500m) to show for his efforts; so isn't the greatest middle distance runner ever! Also had a habit of avoiding some of the other great runners of the time.ï»¿"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf-Yh79umYk

6 years ago 06/15/2017 4:44pm EDT

re: Bad Wigins

"Aouita's 10000 is not good enough to count as impressive range."

And Peter Snell never ran a very impressive mile either.

When Aouita ran 27:26 in 1966, the world record was 27:14 and not many runner had broken 27:30. He was about the 5th 6th on the all-time list.

For a 1:44/3:29/3:46 guy to run a 27:26 was pretty shocking at the time.

6 years ago 06/15/2017 4:57pm EDT

re: pmurt

pmurt wrote:
"Aouita's 10000 is not good enough to count as impressive range."
And Peter Snell never ran a very impressive mile either.
When Aouita ran 27:26 in 1966, the world record was 27:14 and not many runner had broken 27:30. He was about the 5th 6th on the all-time list.
For a 1:44/3:29/3:46 guy to run a 27:26 was pretty shocking at the time.

I don't even understand how training can turn you from a 1:50/3:40 800/1500 man into the 5th fastest ever at 10000m in your debut at the race (whilst continuing to train for the 800/1500/5000). I mean where the hell did his range come from? Surely he either had it or he hadn't?

I can see that a middle-distance runner who hadn't been training in the optimal way could slice a few seconds off his 800/1500 pbs, but in Aouita's case he didn't just do that but 3 or 4 years later somehow possessed the superhuman gift of 'range' that enabled him to run close to the world record in a debut 10,000m race?? How truly terrible must have been his training in 80 and 81 if as a full time athlete competing regularly on the European circuit he was struggling to break 1:50/3:40 and yet all that time had the 'talent' to run 1:43 800m and 27 1000m????

6 years ago 06/15/2017 5:00pm EDT

re: Martel

Martel wrote:
Up until a few weeks ago Said Aouita was one of my all-time heroes. I'd always considered him to be one of the greats, maybe the greatest ever with his astonishing and unparalleled range. Furthermore, he competed in one of the greatest of all eras, running against other legends such as Cram, Coe, and Ovett.
But lately his name has come up quite regularly here and I've learnt a few things that have really forced me to rethink my entire estimation of him.
For a start, it seems that he didn't really run against those other legends at all, or hardly at all. He ducked them at almost every opportunity. He avoided racing against Ovett until Ovett was an old man moving up to the 5000m. He did race against Cram in the famous Nice race in 85, but after that went out of his way to avoid him, even choosing the 5000m at the 87 world championships, and only dropping back down to the 800 and 1500m in 88 when it appeared Cram was burnt out, as well as Coe past his best and Elliot an Bile injured.
He dodged Coe, Cram, and Ovett in 84, preferring to take on a 1500m icon from a decade earlier - John Walker - in the 5000m. He even backed out of a head to head with Coe immediately after LA, choosing to run the 2000m instead of racing in the 1500m like a man with Coe.
But more disturbingly is the doping scandal he was involved in as national coach of Australia, in which he was accused by several of his athletes of encouraging them to use PEDs, claiming it was the only way to win. Instead of defending himself at the subsequent enquiry, he elected to flee back to Morocco, where he astonishingly was appointed as national athletics director.
Others here have detailed how he was at best an average b-level runner on the European circuit for several years in the early 80's, only transforming into the superhuman capable of running WRs at any distance in 83 (at nearly 25 years of age) after he moved full-time to Italy, where blood doping was rife in the 1980s. Later, he switched managers and was coached by Norwegian Vincent Modahl, husband and coach of Dianne - later to become the first British female athlete to ever fail a drugs test.
Although Aouita was the first ever world class male athlete from North Africa, in his wake followed a stream of runners recording incredible times, coinciding with the availability of the most powerful endurance drug ever - EPO.
Does this make Aouita the greatest villain in track and field history? Arguably, if Aouita did dope to the eyeballs as seems almost certain, it was he who killed our sport by normalizing the use of PEDs, particularly in Africa, and hence destroying the legitimacy of athletics.
In the mid-eighties, athletics - and in particular middle-distance - had never been more popular. The sport had been blessed by a string of legends from Snell, to Ryun, to the Golden Brit generation of Coe, Ovett, Cram and Elliot. Along came Aouita, running extraordinary times from 800 to 10000, constantly denigrating the British runners whose popularity had almost single-handedly transformed athletics from an amateur pasttime into a professional multi-million dollar global sport, and yet refusing to back up his words by meeting them on the track. In his wake, followed a plethora of obviously drugged up Africans, in particular a slew of North Africans that put WRs out of reach, records that are now seen as so obviously fake that the whole history of athletics is on the point of being put in the trash can amid calls to start all over again with a 'year zero'.

Aouita raced Cram in '83 at the Worlds. Ovett was in the race as well and in fact had the fastest finish. With better positioning it's possible he could have won the race. The win by Cram is what made Aouita run the 5k in '84. That and he and his coaches privately being worried by Coe's speed if Coe showed up in top form in Los Angeles, never mind Cram who had beaten him handily at the WCs.

The Nice race was 85 and Aouita closed like a beast until the last 20 meters when he couldn't gain anymore on Cram.

Cram was in great form going into '88 and then again pulled his calf muscle. His stupid insistence on not wearing an orthotic to help with the pronation problem with his right foot is what ruined his chances. He and Aouita would have raced each other in the 800 and 1500 had both been healthy. Aouita was hurt in the 800 in which he finished third.

I could go on, but the fact is that while Aouita was a nut, he didn't exactly duck everyone all the time as the OP implies. He raced the best when he felt he was ready just like a lot of other top runners.

6 years ago 06/15/2017 5:24pm EDT

re: 4 lappers

4 lappers wrote:
Martel wrote:
Up until a few weeks ago Said Aouita was one of my all-time heroes. I'd always considered him to be one of the greats, maybe the greatest ever with his astonishing and unparalleled range. Furthermore, he competed in one of the greatest of all eras, running against other legends such as Cram, Coe, and Ovett.
But lately his name has come up quite regularly here and I've learnt a few things that have really forced me to rethink my entire estimation of him.
For a start, it seems that he didn't really run against those other legends at all, or hardly at all. He ducked them at almost every opportunity. He avoided racing against Ovett until Ovett was an old man moving up to the 5000m. He did race against Cram in the famous Nice race in 85, but after that went out of his way to avoid him, even choosing the 5000m at the 87 world championships, and only dropping back down to the 800 and 1500m in 88 when it appeared Cram was burnt out, as well as Coe past his best and Elliot an Bile injured.
He dodged Coe, Cram, and Ovett in 84, preferring to take on a 1500m icon from a decade earlier - John Walker - in the 5000m. He even backed out of a head to head with Coe immediately after LA, choosing to run the 2000m instead of racing in the 1500m like a man with Coe.
But more disturbingly is the doping scandal he was involved in as national coach of Australia, in which he was accused by several of his athletes of encouraging them to use PEDs, claiming it was the only way to win. Instead of defending himself at the subsequent enquiry, he elected to flee back to Morocco, where he astonishingly was appointed as national athletics director.
Others here have detailed how he was at best an average b-level runner on the European circuit for several years in the early 80's, only transforming into the superhuman capable of running WRs at any distance in 83 (at nearly 25 years of age) after he moved full-time to Italy, where blood doping was rife in the 1980s. Later, he switched managers and was coached by Norwegian Vincent Modahl, husband and coach of Dianne - later to become the first British female athlete to ever fail a drugs test.
Although Aouita was the first ever world class male athlete from North Africa, in his wake followed a stream of runners recording incredible times, coinciding with the availability of the most powerful endurance drug ever - EPO.
Does this make Aouita the greatest villain in track and field history? Arguably, if Aouita did dope to the eyeballs as seems almost certain, it was he who killed our sport by normalizing the use of PEDs, particularly in Africa, and hence destroying the legitimacy of athletics.
In the mid-eighties, athletics - and in particular middle-distance - had never been more popular. The sport had been blessed by a string of legends from Snell, to Ryun, to the Golden Brit generation of Coe, Ovett, Cram and Elliot. Along came Aouita, running extraordinary times from 800 to 10000, constantly denigrating the British runners whose popularity had almost single-handedly transformed athletics from an amateur pasttime into a professional multi-million dollar global sport, and yet refusing to back up his words by meeting them on the track. In his wake, followed a plethora of obviously drugged up Africans, in particular a slew of North Africans that put WRs out of reach, records that are now seen as so obviously fake that the whole history of athletics is on the point of being put in the trash can amid calls to start all over again with a 'year zero'.
Aouita raced Cram in '83 at the Worlds. Ovett was in the race as well and in fact had the fastest finish. With better positioning it's possible he could have won the race. The win by Cram is what made Aouita run the 5k in '84. That and he and his coaches privately being worried by Coe's speed if Coe showed up in top form in Los Angeles, never mind Cram who had beaten him handily at the WCs.
The Nice race was 85 and Aouita closed like a beast until the last 20 meters when he couldn't gain anymore on Cram.
Cram was in great form going into '88 and then again pulled his calf muscle. His stupid insistence on not wearing an orthotic to help with the pronation problem with his right foot is what ruined his chances. He and Aouita would have raced each other in the 800 and 1500 had both been healthy. Aouita was hurt in the 800 in which he finished third.
I could go on, but the fact is that while Aouita was a nut, he didn't exactly duck everyone all the time as the OP implies. He raced the best when he felt he was ready just like a lot of other top runners.

Fair enough but I guess even Aouita with his 'range' decided pretty early in 88, or more likely winter 87/88 to target the 800/1500 in Seoul.

And it really did appear that Cram was a shot athlete at the end of 87. He appeared to have gone both physically and mentally as an elite athlete. Likewise, I guess nobody in the winter of 87 could see Coe as a threat for Seoul. I don't think he even ran indoors that winter did he? I'm not sure when Bile got injured or at what point it was clear he wouldn't be fit for the Olympics but I'm sure Aouita felt he had a chance against him (I think Bile's pb at the time was still 3:33 or something), or at least a better chance than against a healthy and confident Cram. Nobody thought Cruz would come back as a serious contender for Seoul, and nobody had heard of Paul Ereng who was still a 400m runner in 87. Billy Konchella, the biggest threat to Aouita over 800m (or bluntly Aouita not a chance in hell of Gold if a 87 Aouita was in the race) was ill early in 88 and missed the Olympic trials. Aouita went for the 800/1500 in 88 because it was unique opportunity for him. It looked like he was going to be the only top middle-distance runner healthy in Seoul (a good bet as he hadn't suffered any injuries since moving to Italy in the winter of 82).

On a side note, I only just learned that Billy Konchella was convicted of drugging and raping two underage Finnish girls in 2005 and served less than a year in prison for it (he would have gotten 2000 years in the USA). As far as villains is concerned that must rank high. Also, if you're willing to drug and rape underage girls I guess we should assume he was a PED user too, and thus likely most of the Kenyans too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Konchellah

6 years ago 06/16/2017 3:57pm EDT

re: Charles the Hammer

Charles the Hammer wrote:@calculus - are you taking the piss?

you are talking rubbish

Ovett had broken the wr at end of 83 and was running into form before LA

his form before games was noway near potential winner form

Many considered him favourite

Aouita was best 1500 runner entering games with that 3'31.5pb but coudn't double with both finals on same day !

ovett's best run entering games was a paltry 3'34.5 in oslo winning by the skin of his teeth over gonzales

scott for one was hugely favoured over ovett & was maree if any good shape

that's not counting the brits

Hindsight is a wonderful thing

no hindsight

i didn't think ovett had a snowball in hell's chance of winning 1500 on his form entering games

'83 shape was different as he ran that 3'30.77 in a hugely windy day when he thought there was 0 chance of a wr

if 0 wind in rieti he wouda likely run 3'29-flat/low & that wouda been form to contend in games

He lost to Cram by a vest after being tired from wr and amother race

he was in much better shape in '83 than '84 when ill at games but in poor shape beforehand

The same Cram you claim would have beaten Coe in LA if in his 83 form

yes

cram was clearly expecting to have career peak in '84 not in meaningless '85 but injury scuppered his '84 & all he was left with was to recover for '85, the shape he expected for '84 & chase the clock

cram in '85 shape wouda won the '84 1500 & '85 shape was what he wouda expected at games not for meaningless '85

Nobody expected Cram to break the WR in Nice

is that a joke ???

cram had just run 3'31.3pb in oslo

wr was 3'30.77

i certainly expected cram to possibly break the wr but i didn't expect him to run 3'29.67

i thought beforehand he might go 3'30.25/3'30.5 if he got perfect race

All eyes were on Cruz, which Aouita knew was a joke

is that a joke ???

then why on earth did Aouita track cruz rather than cram ???

Aouita made mistake of tracking cruz who was big unknown at 1500 & ignored cram's 3'31.3 from just coupla weeks before

Aouita was an idiot & ignored the man up front who had just beaten his pb coupla weeks before

The 1500 carried huge prestige. In the 80s, 5000m was full of failed 1500 guys or past prime like Walker

is that a joke ???

yifter won gold in '80, but 1 major in '83 won by a moved-up-1500er in coghlan but '84 won by a bonafide 1500/5k guy as was '88

who the hell cares about walker for 5k ???

his pb was a pathetic 13'19.2 !!!

You accuse Coe of being a blood doper yet igmore Aouita who virtually admitted it

is this a joke ???

one had a toxoplasmosis +ve

the other it is rumoured was so scathing of the ozzie guys he was asked to coach that the only way he reckoned they coud compete at elite level was to dope !

that is no evidence of doping but realistic opinion

same as if any semi-elite who came upto any knowledgeable guy on this board & said :

"i'm 25y & trained my butt-off for years & my best 1500 in a near perfect race was 3'35, what can i do to be a contenda ?"

Aouita gave same answer that anyone else here woud :

"kid, only way you will be a contenda is if you dope"

Makes me suspect your hero Ryun was a doper too and you are similarly o.k. with it.

utter rubbish

what doping are you suggesting ???

even if you think guy such as this was doping, have you any clue about how much dope costs ???

Ryun coud barely continue his career post-college as not enough money for a family & actually quit for 1y in '69 or '70 or '71 to get a job !!!

if he had to quit track to support his family how on earth did he pay for dope ???

& what specific doping in '60s was going to give him the incredible performances he put in ???

6 years ago 06/16/2017 4:09pm EDT

re: Coevett

Coevett wrote:Found a fair comment by Deano from a YouTube video of Aouita's that I very much agree with :
"Overated in my opinion, and has that drug incident in Australia hanging over him!? Certainly a great 5000m runner and one of the most versatile athletes ever, but wouldn't be on anyone's top 5 list over 800m or 1500m with just 2 bronze medals and one WR (at 1500m) to show for his efforts; so isn't the greatest middle distance runner ever! Also had a habit of avoiding some of the other great runners of the time.ï»¿"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf-Yh79umYk

that is worthless opinion

if you/he/anyone had bothered to analyse Aouita's 800 in seoul on 1 leg, it was worth ~ 1'42.7 !!! if perfect race drafted to bell tight in lane-1

& that's running on just 1 leg !!!

he easily was in 1'42-flat shape entering seoul before leg injury

his 3'29.7 had ridiculous ~ 12m extra on bends, lack of drafting & with wide-running on last lap had a 52.7 !!!

that was an intrinsic 3'26-high !!!

Aouita in different years was probably

- '85 ~ 3'26-high

- '88 when past his peak & beat-up after some injury years at very very worst ~ 1'42-flat

that puts him easily in top 5 - 10 intrinsic 800/1500 runners of all-time but that is an exalted list on "intrinsic" ability & why nowhere near top-3

6 years ago 06/16/2017 4:22pm EDT

re: calculo

calculo wrote:
same as if any semi-elite who came upto any knowledgeable guy on this board & said :
"i'm 25y & trained my butt-off for years & my best 1500 in a near perfect race was 3'35, what can i do to be a contenda ?"
Aouita gave same answer that anyone else here woud :
"kid, only way you will be a contenda is if you dope"

Is this is a joke???

Aouita was nearly 25, had been training his butt off and competing on the European circuit for years, and his best 1500m in the perfect race was 3'37, his best 800m 1'48, and yet you think 3 years later he was worth 3'26 and then 2 years after that past his 'best' and on one leg he was capable of 1'42 flat 800m???? And you think Coe doped but Aouita didn't????????????

Really? You are joking????

6 years ago 06/16/2017 4:28pm EDT

re: Coevett

Coevett wrote:I don't even understand how training can turn you from a 1:50/3:40 800/1500 man into the 5th fastest ever at 10000m in your debut at the race (whilst continuing to train for the 800/1500/5000)

you seem to lack logic

1'50/3'40 are nonsense times

therefore logically his training then was nonsense no matter what anyone can claim

I mean where the hell did his range come from?

you don't know what his potential range was back then as he didn't even attempt 5k let alone 10k back then

it maya been that he was much better suited to 5k/10k back then off his nonsense training

you forget Silas started off as a "10k" runner before canova got hold off him & converted him to a 1500er who ran 3'27.6 off stumble in 1st lap, execrable split for Silas at 800, wide bend running included & 53+ finish

he was worth that day in perfect race

~ 3'25-high

if a "10k" guy can show that for 1500 then range may be inherent as well as trained-for

Surely he either had it or he hadn't?

he likely did but didn't run serious race at 5k let alone 10k in '80 - '83

I can see that a middle-distance runner who hadn't been training in the optimal way could slice a few seconds off his 800/1500 pbs, but in Aouita's case he didn't just do that but 3 or 4 years later somehow possessed the superhuman gift of 'range' that enabled him to run close to the world record in a debut 10,000m race??

is this a joke ???

he already had 13-flat which if not for utter jog between 3k - 4600 wouda been ~ 12'55, we extrapolate for general 5k/10k conversion of :

"double it & add 1'00"

Aouita theoretically had 10k limit off 12'55 of ~ 26'50

so an actual 27'26 even with spiked shoe is nothing special whatsoever

How truly terrible must have been his training in 80 and 81 if as a full time athlete competing regularly on the European circuit he was struggling to break 1:50/3:40 and yet all that time had the 'talent' to run 1:43 800m and 27 1000m????

yes

utter nonsense training in 3rd world with no proper facilities & no decent coaching

this is same rubbish training as saw Korir running 46+ / 1'46+ last year in 3rd world Kenya & comes to 1st world with decent coach but more importantly 1st world facilities & weights room & who looks to be in

~ 44-flat / 1'42-flat

get a clue...

6 years ago 06/16/2017 4:47pm EDT

re: calculo

@Calculo

Regards your opinions of Ovett not having a chance in hell in 84, no. Just no.

Ovett put together a 7 race winning streak before suffering a skin rash a few weeks before LA(likely a precursor of the LA problems and the later career inability to cope with heat) . During LA he suffered an inflammation of his heart as well as bronchitis and yet was still able to run 1:44 to reach the final of the 800m, and then despite several overnight stays in the hospital reach the 1500m final. Somebody once suggested here that Ovett's performances at LA - reaching two Olympics finals when he should have been in a hospital bed - were the greatest by any British athlete in Olympic history. I would largely agree with that.

In the lead up to LA, before he contracted the skin rash, he personally stated he felt he was in the best form of his life after excellent winter training. He won the Bislett Games in 3:34 in a canter, slowing down with 50m to go (he hadn't seen Gonzalez on his inside still in touch). That was the 3rd fastest time of the season at that point. A poster recently claimed that Gonzalez would have beaten Coe to Gold if he hadn't gotten injured before LA (and before Bislett).

The general feeling was that the Gold would be won by whoever of Ovett, Cram, and Coe would turn up in LA healthy. After Ovett's victory at Bislett, it appeared that it would be him. Cram was still 50/50 as to whether even to go to LA. Coe had been beaten by Elliott at the AAA championships the week before, although at those same Bislett Games he impressed in the 800m - winning with is kick of old in 1:43.

You're talking complete nonsense. If Ovett hadn't suffered his health problems in LA (preceded by the probably related skin rash in the weeks before) he would certainly have medalled, although it's unlikely he would have beaten Coe - though nobody expected Coe to come back like that after his earlier season form and 82/83 problems. Ovett's run up to LA was as good or better than his 83 season before the World Championships, which he would likely have won if it wasn't for running the worst tactical race of his life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hloAJrtIjA

6 years ago 06/16/2017 4:55pm EDT

re: Coevett

*Gonzalez got injured after Bislett and before LA meaning he couldn't compete at LA.

Gonzalez was better than Abascal and Ovett thrashed Gonzalez twice in the run up to LA. Only Cram, Coe, or Aouita could have beaten a healthy Ovett at LA, and it didn't look like Cram or Coe was even going to make it to LA (and Aouita chose the 5000m - he even ducked out of facing Ovett after the Bislett run).

If Aouita running a 1:44 in Seoul with a slight hamstring problem (you can see from the video of the race he wasn't running on 'one leg') is equivalent to 1:42 flat, what was Ovett's 1:44 suffering from both bronchitis AND an inflammation of his heart muscle worth?

6 years ago 06/16/2017 8:12pm EDT

re: calculo

calculo wrote:
Coevett wrote:Found a fair comment by Deano from a YouTube video of Aouita's that I very much agree with :
"Overated in my opinion, and has that drug incident in Australia hanging over him!? Certainly a great 5000m runner and one of the most versatile athletes ever, but wouldn't be on anyone's top 5 list over 800m or 1500m with just 2 bronze medals and one WR (at 1500m) to show for his efforts; so isn't the greatest middle distance runner ever! Also had a habit of avoiding some of the other great runners of the time.ï»¿"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf-Yh79umYk
that is worthless opinion
if you/he/anyone had bothered to analyse Aouita's 800 in seoul on 1 leg, it was worth ~ 1'42.7 !!! if perfect race drafted to bell tight in lane-1
& that's running on just 1 leg !!!
he easily was in 1'42-flat shape entering seoul before leg injury
his 3'29.7 had ridiculous ~ 12m extra on bends, lack of drafting & with wide-running on last lap had a 52.7 !!!

Hey calculo, I hate to break it to you but Aouita had had two legs in 1988. Aouita could not run sub 1:43 because wasn't fast enough.

Aouita was dirty and he belongs in the East German dust bin of history.

I'm still looking for a puppy for you mate.

6 years ago 06/16/2017 8:39pm EDT

re: Subway Surfers Addiction

Aouitas range is impressive, yet it is not as impressive as Sandor Iharos relative to world records of the time. Iharos broke the 1500m, 3000m, 2miles and 5000m world records in one amazing summer in 1955. A year later he added the 10000m record, a record Aouita never broke.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/25/sports/sandor-iharos-65-champion-runner.html

6 years ago 06/16/2017 9:43pm EDT

re: Martel

You may have a good point about the PED suspicion, Monsieur Charles Hammer Martel, and a great beat to your theme song but I can't touch this, but I am on to you. You died 22 October 741 AD. I presume you are aware Algerians won two Olympic marathons prior to 1960, and North Africans a few others prior to Aouita in 1984.

6 years ago 06/17/2017 1:37am EDT

re: calculo

calculo wrote:
Coevett wrote:I don't even understand how training can turn you from a 1:50/3:40 800/1500 man into the 5th fastest ever at 10000m in your debut at the race (whilst continuing to train for the 800/1500/5000)
you seem to lack logic
1'50/3'40 are nonsense times
therefore logically his training then was nonsense no matter what anyone can claim
I mean where the hell did his range come from?
you don't know what his potential range was back then as he didn't even attempt 5k let alone 10k back then
it maya been that he was much better suited to 5k/10k back then off his nonsense training
you forget Silas started off as a "10k" runner before canova got hold off him & converted him to a 1500er who ran 3'27.6 off stumble in 1st lap, execrable split for Silas at 800, wide bend running included & 53+ finish
he was worth that day in perfect race
~ 3'25-high
if a "10k" guy can show that for 1500 then range may be inherent as well as trained-for
Surely he either had it or he hadn't?
he likely did but didn't run serious race at 5k let alone 10k in '80 - '83
I can see that a middle-distance runner who hadn't been training in the optimal way could slice a few seconds off his 800/1500 pbs, but in Aouita's case he didn't just do that but 3 or 4 years later somehow possessed the superhuman gift of 'range' that enabled him to run close to the world record in a debut 10,000m race??
is this a joke ???
he already had 13-flat which if not for utter jog between 3k - 4600 wouda been ~ 12'55, we extrapolate for general 5k/10k conversion of :
"double it & add 1'00"
Aouita theoretically had 10k limit off 12'55 of ~ 26'50
so an actual 27'26 even with spiked shoe is nothing special whatsoever
How truly terrible must have been his training in 80 and 81 if as a full time athlete competing regularly on the European circuit he was struggling to break 1:50/3:40 and yet all that time had the 'talent' to run 1:43 800m and 27 1000m????
yes
utter nonsense training in 3rd world with no proper facilities & no decent coaching
this is same rubbish training as saw Korir running 46+ / 1'46+ last year in 3rd world Kenya & comes to 1st world with decent coach but more importantly 1st world facilities & weights room & who looks to be in
~ 44-flat / 1'42-flat
get a clue...

All you seem to have is logic on your side, but third rate misapplied logic.

1:50 and 3:40 are only nonsense times with the benefit of hindsight after the real nonsense times he was able to achieve pumped to to the gills with HGH and his own frozen and recirculated blood.

There is simply no way somebody who had been racing at an international level since 1979 could go three years on the European circuit so badly trained as to be running 5 seconds a lap slower than he really was capable of with decent coaching (and remember, Aouita supposedly coached himself, so anybody but a naive cretin could see that it was impossible for him to suddenly 'discover' the right method of training that would lead to the greatest sudden improvement in athletics history at that level).

It's you who has a problem with logic. If his superhuman range from 800 to 10000 was natural, his ability to run a 36 second last 300m off a 3:34 1500 was real or natural, he could NEVER have been a 1:50/3:40 runner for so many years. His times were scarcely better than the WRs of ONE HUNDRED YEARS AGO. Given that he was way more talented (if natural, which he clearly wasn't) than the WR holders of 100 years ago, he must have far worse trained than the runners of the early 20th century. This is impossible for an athlete running on the European circuit in the 1980s.

Then he gets caught telling his athletes that it's impossible to win without taking PEDs and you still think it's more likely that Coe took PEDs rather than him!!!! I don't mean to be rude, but I presume you have dementia.

6 years ago 06/17/2017 1:44am EDT

re: Martel

The real villains in track history are doctors and administrators. East German physicians who mutilated people who thought they were getting corrective surgery, to make sure they never defected. Then there is Avery Brundgage, head of the IOC (1952 - 1972), an avowed racist who kowtowed to Hitler. None of our athletes come within a marathon distance of these ghouls.

6 years ago 06/17/2017 2:20am EDT

re: I get the music

I get the music wrote:
You may have a good point about the PED suspicion, Monsieur Charles Hammer Martel, and a great beat to your theme song but I can't touch this, but I am on to you. You died 22 October 741 AD. I presume you are aware Algerians won two Olympic marathons prior to 1960, and North Africans a few others prior to Aouita in 1984.

Which goes to show that North Africa was not the backwater that is supposed in the 80's until Aouita magically transformed it into the world's leading training (doping) culture. Morcelli's older brother was also a regular on the European circuit at the same time as Aouita, qualified for both Moscow and LA, and finished 4th behind Ovett at the WC in 1981.

Aouita was running TEN SECONDS A LAP slower than he was..ahem...'capable' of from 1979 all the way through to 1982, with little or any improvement. Suddenly he moves to Italy in the winter of 82 and 83, still coaching himself, but the air in Milan is so conducive to his spirit he quickly starts threatening or breaking world records from 800 to 10000m. Later, he is chased out of Australia after persistently pressurizing his clean athletes to start taking every PED under the sun because 'it's the only way you can win', but still, Aouita was the greatest distance runner in history.

No wonder our sport has died when 'authorities' on the history of track and field, such as Calculo, defend Aouita as 'clean' yet make accusations against the likes of Coe.

6 years ago 06/17/2017 2:33am EDT

re: Coevett

Coevett wrote:
1:50 and 3:40 are only nonsense times with the benefit of hindsight after the real nonsense times he was able to achieve pumped to to the gills with HGH and his own frozen and recirculated blood.
There is simply no way somebody who had been racing at an international level since 1979 could go three years on the European circuit so badly trained as to be running 10 seconds a lap slower than he really was capable of with decent coaching (and remember, Aouita supposedly coached himself, so anybody but a naive cretin could see that it was impossible for him to suddenly 'discover' the right method of training that would lead to the greatest sudden improvement in athletics history at that level).

Calculo is the guy whose hero is Jim Ryun, an example of a real natural talent who displayed it by running 3:33 as a teen.

Yet along comes somebody with arguably even greater natural talent than Ryun, and somehow spends most of his early twenties running 1:50/3:40 times on the European circuit.

As I said, dementia or you're simply playing a bad joke.

I have no idea whether Ryun doped. I have no reason to suspect he did other than the fact that you - Ryun's greatest supporter here - is also a defender of the most obvious doper in track and field history (Aouita).

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