Greatest Female Marathon of All-Time: P. Radcliffe, C. Ndereba, N. Takahashi....?

Firstly, I think it should be added that global championship marathons don't hold as much weight as, say, a 1500m global title would. Marathoners race sparingly and their main chance of raking in the cash is with the big city marathons. Whether they are also fit for the glocal championships marathons can sometimes be hit and miss. Also, big city marathons often have much higher quality fields, as there is no limit on the number of athletes from each nation (namely Kenya, Ethiopia, Japan) that can compete in them. Of course global titles are important, but in some instances, it is extremely feasible that the greatest marathon runners of all time could end up with no global title whatsoever.

Anyway, my list...

1. Paula Radcliffe

Has won all the marathons she has completed. Top three clockings of all-time, four of the top five times of all-time. Three time London winner with other other big city marathons (NY and Chicago) to boot. Has beaten all of the other top current marathoners at least once (Ndereba, Okayo, Kiplagat, Yingjie, Dita, Chepkemei, etc, etc...). Very much a pioneer of women's distance running and will go down in history as a marathon legend. Only thing lacking so far is a global title, but when she does get one of these, then her place atop the all-time greatest rankings will be unquestionable.

2. Catherine Ndereba

Good championships record (WCh gold, OG silver). 50% winning record and has finished in the top two in all of her marathons since 2000. Can hang with a fast pace, or can treat it more like a race with lethal closing strength. Four-time Boston winner, 2-time Chicago winner. Was ranked behind Radcliffe mainly based on their head-to-heads.

3. Grete Waitz

Another pioneer of women's marathon running. First woman below 2:30, and had four world records. She won the world champs marathon, and had an Olympic silver to boot (much like Ndereba). Plenty of big-city marathon wins, however she falls back somewhat on the fact that she competed in the event when it was still quite young, and her PR in the marathon seems rather weak nowadays (although her 1500m and 3000m times would still be classed as very respectable today).

Others:

4. Ingrid Kristiansen

5. Rosa Mota

6. Naoko Takahashi

7. Katrin Dörre

8. Joan Benoit

9. Tegla Loroupe

10. Uta Pippig

SJD wrote:

Firstly, I think it should be added that global championship marathons don't hold as much weight as, say, a 1500m global title would. Marathoners race sparingly and their main chance of raking in the cash is with the big city marathons. Whether they are also fit for the glocal championships marathons can sometimes be hit and miss. Also, big city marathons often have much higher quality fields, as there is no limit on the number of athletes from each nation (namely Kenya, Ethiopia, Japan) that can compete in them. Of course global titles are important, but in some instances, it is extremely feasible that the greatest marathon runners of all time could end up with no global title whatsoever.

speaking in terms of creating a historical legacy in the sport, big city marathons may come and go, and the relative prestige of each one may diminish over the years. the prestige of an olympic or world championship will always be high--unless all the runners decide that theyd rather skip them in favor of high-paying big city races. now, if we want to measure success in the marathon by how much money one can rake in through appearance fees and prizes, then paula would inarguably be the best marathoner of all time.

like whathisname mentioned, jim peters was a world record holder and the best of his day--but i had to google him to find out all the details about his career.

ingrid kristiansen and allison roe had world records and big city marathon wins, but no one has mentioned them in this thread. just look at ingrid's record--looks a bit similar to paula's:

World Championships

gold 10,000 metres 1987

World Cross-Country Championships

gold 1988

Boston Marathon

1986, 1989

New York Marathon

1989

Chicago Marathon

1986

London Marathon

1984, 1985, 1987, 1988

princess of wales wrote:

ingrid kristiansen and allison roe had world records and big city marathon wins, but no one has mentioned them in this thread.

Yes, I did. I had her down as 4th on my list and she was actually the first name mentioned in the original post of this thread!

Yes, her record is similar to Paula\'s, but Paula ranks three places higher than Ingrid based on:

- Series of marks is WAY better (has ran times faster than Kristiansen\'s PR four times)

- Head-to-head record is much stronger, as she has beaten all of the top marathon runners today - a much tougher and more competitive era than the 80\'s.

- Winning percentage (83% or 100% based on marathons completed) is pretty much unrivalled.

"true, but history isnt gonna be sympathetic to that. unfortunately, people remember championships, not times. she needs one badly--not for anyone today or tomorrow, but for the runners 50 years from now."

That will be why nobody remembers Jim Peters now? Interestingly he did the same to the Men's WR as PR has done to the Women's WR. At his retirement he held 4 of the best 6 times ever and Noakes for example regards him as the best marathoner ever. PR is in that position now with presumably several years of her career to come.

Phil. wrote:

That will be why nobody remembers Jim Peters now? Interestingly he did the same to the Men's WR as PR has done to the Women's WR. At his retirement he held 4 of the best 6 times ever and Noakes for example regards him as the best marathoner ever. PR is in that position now with presumably several years of her career to come.

pretty, much, yeah.

im not questioning the greatness of paula or jim peters, but there have been many other world record holders over the past hundred years who were pretty remarkable in their day too. but most of them have been forgotten and the ones who are remembered are the olympic and world champions. 50 years from now, when women are running 2:10 (2:05??), paula's records will be footnotes. paula has said it herself--it's not about time, but winning championships--i believe she did use the word "championship."

Just a question, because I really don't know, but what was Benoit's marathon career like? I had always just assumed she had a really good career.

winner of the first women's olympic marathon in which all the "legends" and "pioneers" of the sport were competing. whatever else she did in her career wouldnt have made a difference in cementing her place in history.

olympics aside, she held the WR, won boston twice, and chicago i think. that's off the top of my head. someone google her career.

SJD wrote:

Yes, I did. I had her down as 4th on my list and she was actually the first name mentioned in the original post of this thread!

Yes, her record is similar to Paula's, but Paula ranks three places higher than Ingrid based on:

- Series of marks is WAY better (has ran times faster than Kristiansen's PR four times)

- Head-to-head record is much stronger, as she has beaten all of the top marathon runners today - a much tougher and more competitive era than the 80's.

- Winning percentage (83% or 100% based on marathons completed) is pretty much unrivalled.

oops, i missed her name up there!

--"way better" is relative. 50 years from now, there will be some other runners who's times will be "way better" than paula's.

--you cant really compare them head to head. paula may have beaten some of the world's best today, but she lost to all of them when they were all assembled in one time and place. winning a race with **ALL** of the world's best present makes a bigger statement than beating the world's best one by one in different races--at least IMHO.

--re. winning percentages, paula's career isnt over yet, so her percentage could easily reach drop below, or rise above, 83%.

not that i like knocking down paula--i think she ranks among the best--but if she wants to nail down a snug, inarguable place in history as the best, she's got a little more work to do.

I'm astonished. Paula ran a 2:15 marathon. In that one single race, she became the best of all time. There can be no debate - she isn't immortal, but no one is even close.

Terrorizing Statistics wrote:

the only win coming at the Olympics when Radcliffe wasn't fit to race.

HAHAHA! So now she "wasn't fit to race," eh?

Whatever helps you beat it to her image at night, sir...

VA Beach wrote:

I'm astonished. Paula ran a 2:15 marathon. In that one single race, she became the best of all time. There can be no debate - she isn't immortal, but no one is even close.

why didnt taka-whatshername become the best of all time when she broke 2:20? or grete when she broke 2:30? or whoever it was who first broke 3:00. paula's record will not stand. the title of "world record holder" is only temporary. paula needs a permanent title like "world champ."

fassst wrote:

HAHAHA! So now she "wasn't fit to race," eh?

Err.. yes. Read up about it, and you'll see that it's amazing she actually made the startline of the race, let alone last 36km of it.

Sticking to those same three points....

- Yes, "way better" is relative, but the event is FAR more developed now than it was 20 years ago. I'm pretty sure Paula's record will last long enough for us to assume that Paula's series of marks is one of the most impressive in the history of the women's marathon.

- She only lost to them when (for several reasons pertaining to illness and injury) she was unable to complete the race. Therefore, their win against a 50% fit Paula means FAR less than the wins Paula has notched up against them when at full fitness. She has beaten Ndereba, Okayo, Chepkemei, etc, etc, when all of them have been at (or very near) their best. Noguchi's win over Paula in Athens doesn't really count for much in terms of head-to-heads (of course, Noguchi got an OG gold out of it, but that's an entirely different matter).

- If anything, I'm pretty sure that Paula's winning percentage will increase on that 83% as time goes on. But I suppose that's for us to find out.

You do raise a key point though - Paula is probably only half way through her marathon career (only been doing them since 2002), so the fact that most people already rate her as the greatest just underlines her sheer brilliance. I'm pretty sure that by the time she retires (hopefully with one or two global titles), she will undoubtedly be the greatest female marathoner of all time and perhaps even the greatest female distance runner of all time.

There has been some great responses followed by logic to support posters picks!

SJD

Great post and great supporting material; however, is fast times more important than Medals at the Olympics and Worlds. In my opinion and most statisticans medals accounts SLIGHTLY more than World Records and head to head wins (especially when one has no medals). Although I don't agree with your list top spot-great list indeed!!! If Paula wins a Olympic or World Marathon title than she's #1 all-time until then its Catherine the Great.

VIPAM

SJD wrote:...it's amazing she actually made the startline of the race, let alone last 36km of it.

HAHAHA! Are you that same promoter of her book who's always here? If so, at least use the same name consistently, BGD or whatver it was last month.

"Amazing"?! Fairly mundane, honestly. If that's amazing to you, you must be exposed to a pretty boring world.

Of course, making fairly small things into massive excuses, after the fact, is nothing new. Perhaps you forget the mood of her pre-race press talks, though? Perhaps you forget how she started and ran the first 15 miles of the race? "Amazing that she made actually made it to the startline"? Please. We don't need an elaborate story for every competitor who went out too fast that day.

p.s. Yes, she gets my "greatest" vote. But I think that your fanboy/girl whining is pathetic.

SJD wrote:

- She only lost to them when (for several reasons pertaining to illness and injury) she was unable to complete the race. Therefore, their win against a 50% fit Paula means FAR less than the wins Paula has notched up against them when at full fitness. She has beaten Ndereba, Okayo, Chepkemei, etc, etc, when all of them have been at (or very near) their best. Noguchi's win over Paula in Athens doesn't really count for much in terms of head-to-heads (of course, Noguchi got an OG gold out of it, but that's an entirely different matter).

again, 50 years from now, no one is gonna make up excuses for paula's peformance in athens (nor will she). it was the most competitive women's olympic field ever, she competed, and didnt place.

the makings of a legendary, greatest runner of all time includes a combination of world records, major big city wins, and an olympic win or world championship. the only women that fit this bill are waitz, ndereba, and benoit.....

hmm....ok, this doesnt work now, b/c i wouldnt call joan benoit the greatest of all time even though she's done all of that. there's must be something else im not thinking of........what do waitz and ndereba have that joan doesnt?......

princess of wales wrote:

why didnt taka-whatshername become the best of all time when she broke 2:20? or grete when she broke 2:30? or whoever it was who first broke 3:00. paula's record will not stand. the title of "world record holder" is only temporary. paula needs a permanent title like "world champ."

Helpful hint for you, sir: The title of this thread - "Greatest Female Marathon[er] of All-Time" - implies that contributors should choose from among women who have run marathons as of now, i.e., April 2005, not from among all women past, present and future. In this spirit, I'll point out that Radcliffe is currently the world record holder by over three minutes. If some other woman runs 2:12 10, 20 or 50 years from now, great - she can inherit Paula's unofficial title as the best ever.

In other words, your argument that the title of "world record holder" is only temporary is neatly countered by the observation that the title of "world's greatest marathoner" is equally fleeting, and that the title of "world champion" is only good for two years, barring repeat victors. In even fewer words, you done screwed the pooch on this one.

Dexter St. Jock wrote:

and that the title of "world champion" is only good for two years, barring repeat victors. In even fewer words, you done screwed the pooch on this one.

well that much i know--but the world champion title is like the "olympic champion" title--it follows you wherever you go, no matter how many years have passed.

how often does joan benoit get announced as "1985 world record holder" vs "1984 olympic champ"?

princess of wales wrote:

how often does joan benoit get announced as "1985 world record holder" vs "1984 olympic champ"?

or was it 1984 when she set the world record. see? who remembers world records alone.