In light of a few posts saying LetsRun.com moderators needs to do a better job on posts about suicide I wanted to open up a discussion on how we should handle such posts. (Some of the posters erroneously thought that a runner who may have died by suicide in Connecticut had posted on here last week saying he was contemplating suicide).
A virtual community is going to have some of the same problems that every community has. If we can help people in our community deal with some of their problems and even prevent a life from being lost that would be tremendous.
First off there was a post last week from a Kansas City Missouri IP address saying they were contemplating suicide. We deleted the thread as we usually do in these instances and then I put up a message to that IP address only when they viewed threads saying,
"We hope you are just making a bad joke about suicide, but it not we guarantee things will get better. Life is precious. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Call this number 1 (800) 273-8255 or visit http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ for help. Or email me [email protected] -Weldon"
Does someone have a better idea on what should be done? Most of the posts in the thread that was removed were positive but some made trolling jokes, etc so that is why we delete them. Plus, there is the possibility the whole thing is a troll attempt.
As for my message to the suicide poster's IP address, the joke part was old language from the last time someone posted like this. I'd like to know if we should have a message up at all, should we just leave the thread up for a while, or what you think should be done?
Feel free to email me as well [email protected]
How Should LetsRun.com Handle Posts About People Saying They May Commit Suicide ?
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I think that was handled very well.
How closely do the IP's you see pinpoint location and user data?
If it's close you could perhaps call the local police station and hand over the information to them? Otherwise it sounds like you're going above and beyond - well done. -
What is the basis of that policy? Liability? Let's talk liability for a moment. Someone in that situation obviously is aware of suicide hotlines, friends, family, hospital emergency departments, and other such efforts the community has to prevent suicide. Amidst all those resources available to him, this person, a runner, came to THIS FORUM. And for good reason. Before it was deleted, I saw a page full of uplifting comments from honest, caring, and insightful fellow runners who were trying to connect with a person who felt that this was the best place to go to be understood. Imagine reaching out desperately to the only people you feel understand you, only to have your lifeline cut off by some admin who, instead, sends you info on a hotline you already knew existed. That you shut off this resource to this person is unconscionable. If that runner has since killed himself then his blood is on your hands.
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Those people mostly need someone to talk to.
Maybe ban the word unless they provide a legit email? Then have them click a link that requires them to contact a prevention specialist.
There are quite a few people who volunteer to help these people. -
Good for you for posting this. thank you. I come from a state with a high incidence of suicide. It's smart to have a message up, but I caution against saying "we guarantee that things will get better."
How about ...but IF not, we believe that life is precious, and situations can change for the better. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and will leave loved ones DEVASTATED. -
Pauline,
Even if you believed this was true, which I hope you don't, what a horrible and immature thing to say - you can't private message the mods if you have such feelings?
I think they had a fantastic response - obviously you haven't been on these forums long enough to know some of the hateful responses that can be heard on here. And even the positive responses aren't coming from trained professionals.
Again I say bravo mods! The mods piss me off occasionally with their deletion of political/jamin threads that I disagree with but this was clearly a good call.
What happens when a poster says "just kill yourself already" (which sadly I have seen) -
Make it an automatic response if the word suicide is used in a post. Like when people use foul language.
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This forum, as I understand it, does not exist as a vehicle for overt therapy. Suicidal people should expect no help here. The forum is not responsible for suicides. Suicides will happen but this forum cannot be expect d to prevent them.
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deviluknow wrote:
Good for you for posting this. thank you. I come from a state with a high incidence of suicide. It's smart to have a message up, but I caution against saying "we guarantee that things will get better."
How about ...but IF not, we believe that life is precious, and situations can change for the better. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and will leave loved ones DEVASTATED.
Well...upon reflection...maybe the devastated part was a bit much. Sorry. My point is only that saying "we guarantee things will get better," sounds a bit, well, pat. Like a platitude. Saying something like, "life is precious and situations can often change for the better or turn around quickly," or something might feel a bit more realistic.
Again, I'm glad the moderators are taking this on. It's fun to play rough on LRC but everyone has low times too. It's not easy out there.
My apologies. -
Volunteer Helper wrote:
There are quite a few people who volunteer to help these people.
What do you mean THESE PEOPLE???? -
This thread is one of the things I love about this forum: the ability to have open dialogue. Not exactly easy to start up a conversation about suicide on Facebook, where everyone knows who you are, etc. Thanks for starting this.
I admire the way you handled that situation. That being said, I actually somewhat agree with the message, if not the tone, of Pauline. 1. Check with your lawyers to see what, if any, liability you may have. 2. It may well be that posting on LRC is a form of reaching out. Would it be possible to carefully monitor the thread without deleting it? That seems like a big ask, now that I am reading it.
Keep up the good work. The dialogue that you have started will do more good than whatever decision you make, and I mean that in a good way. Cheers :-) -
It's interesting to me that vicious attacks and rumor spreading about well known athletes is allowed (maybe even encouraged at times) -- a process which can cause great damage to those individuals.
On the other hand, a random person who may or may not be in trouble gets a helping hand.
Hmm. -
Indiana D00d wrote:
It's interesting to me that vicious attacks and rumor spreading about well known athletes is allowed (maybe even encouraged at times) -- a process which can cause great damage to those individuals.
On the other hand, a random person who may or may not be in trouble gets a helping hand.
Hmm.
The difference is that the well-known athletes are FAST runners. Unforgivable here. -
Pauline Phillips wrote:
What is the basis of that policy? Liability? Let's talk liability for a moment. Someone in that situation obviously is aware of suicide hotlines, friends, family, hospital emergency departments, and other such efforts the community has to prevent suicide. Amidst all those resources available to him, this person, a runner, came to THIS FORUM. And for good reason. Before it was deleted, I saw a page full of uplifting comments from honest, caring, and insightful fellow runners who were trying to connect with a person who felt that this was the best place to go to be understood. Imagine reaching out desperately to the only people you feel understand you, only to have your lifeline cut off by some admin who, instead, sends you info on a hotline you already knew existed. That you shut off this resource to this person is unconscionable. If that runner has since killed himself then his blood is on your hands.
This is palpable nonsense. There is no legal liability here. -
Maybe have one dedicated thread for people to discuss and support each other with issues like depression, stress, anxiety etc. The alcohol thread is full of supportive posts and good advice so a general mental health one might work similarly well
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I think you should do a true IP lookup which will tell you the provider and not just the city. If that IP belongs to a university, you should contact the athletic director and dean of students to alert them that a someone from their school, probably a runner, is having suicidal thoughts. Then they could have the coach call a team meeting and give a little talk.
Another thing that would be great is if you could mark the thread as "approval required" and prevent any post from going live on the tread until it was approved by an admin. Part of me is almost afraid to suggest this feature because I fear its potential abuse, but I think if it was used responsibly by the admins it could be a very useful feature.
The suicide hotline information should be posted for everyone to see, not just the OP because others may be having similar thoughts. -
Henius wrote:
Pauline, if Ventolin calls me an idiot and I kill myself, by your reasoning, he has blood on his hands. Suiicide is more complex than you appear capable of comprehending.
I can comprehend suicide. Hell, I can even spell it correctly. LRC posters are aware of the possibility of being trolled. The suicide poster certainly took this risk knowingly, hoping that there would be someone out there who understood and could help. And he was right to take that chance; all the responses were positive and helpful. What he was not aware of, however, was that his cries for help would be deleted. Therefore, if the poster indeed killed himself after that, there is some amount of culpability on the part of the mod who deleted the post. -
Thoughtful post. You could reach out to a suicide prevention counselor or the like and ask them how best to handle. Although I understand the liability concerns and keeping the idiotic masses from making things worse, the focus should be on getting the right message back to the OP (or other contributor indicating suicidal thoughts if not the OP). Flat out saying things always get better cannot be the best response, can it? They are already in a place where that seems unlikely to them and comes across a bit dismissive. If there's going to be a response at all, I think it important to be spot on based on current thinking in the industry. Contact a professional to formulate a response.
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A site that touches on the subject and I'm sure there are many other places that address the issue.
http://personal-injury.lawyers.com/wrongful-death/whos-legally-liable-when-someone-commits-suicide.html -
Pauline Phillips wrote:
Therefore, if the poster indeed killed himself after that, there is some amount of culpability on the part of the mod who deleted the post.
I have a hard time with this logic. Case law may very well demonstrate otherwise, and informed lawyers are welcome to bring me & others up to speed accordingly, but this makes little sense to me.
The ability to post on LRC is not a right protected by law. Likewise, the ability for mods to delete a post is not prohibited by law. Further, it is clear that LRC does not market itself as a suicide-help service or in any way present itself to the market as offering such support.
Perhaps your reference to "culpability" had less to do with the legality of the act of deletion and more to do with the morality of it, which is also debatable. But if not, this conclusion seems over the top.
