altitude trained runners benefit the most from EPO

I made a significant typo. I meant to say that Canova training at altitude shows athletes increase plasma faster than they add red blood cells. So while both plasma and total red blood cell mass increase, hemoglobin concentration is actually observed to go down. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is Renato canova's observation for his athletes. I do not think it is the universal response of athletes trained at altitude, it's specific I suppose to super elite athletes undergoing a certain training regime. I probably should have specified that this what I was taking about in the initial post.

How can you possibly claim to have a better grasp of the science than me?

Just how can you come up with such a claim? Don't be so silly. How can I be condescending when say that to me? Look through my posts. Read them. Go back 10 years or more. I am consistent in providing information gained from the most knowledgeable sources. I have put a huge amount of time and work into this. I ask awkward questions about ex phys that no other poster has every does. Take another look, if you have some time to spare.

Yes Renato has some good info about plasma volumes, and he is right and Michele Ferrari is wrong on the issue about ideal hematocrits. Yes we have to draw a distinction between long and short term gains, didn't I say that in my last post?

You are in denial of my energy output numbers which are based on actual physiological parameters which can be measured. Take another look. You seriously should get to grips with what I'm saying, because I'm cutting through the dreaful pseudoscience that everyone has been indoctrinated with on doping etc. As well as giving information about energy production and efficiency, which even Mr Tucker can't argue with.

Why are you not engaging with this? Are you just too proud to admit that actually I do know what I'm talking about? This is your silly ego getting in the way?

My determination will not be cowed by internet disinformation and ignorance. If only you could show a bit of humility yourself, I can show you just how far in the wrong direction you and almost everyone else has gone. But you have to drop this ego battle and actually learn some real physiology and realise you have been misinformed about a lot of basic things.

If you just continue to ignore what I am saying, you are just going to stay in the dark. I'm showing you the way forward. You have nothing to lose but your pride.

Look yourself in the mirror. You have shown no capacity for introspection or growth. Your ideas are static. I'm sorry to say this but I really don't see the point in responding to you anymore.

Keep posting though, I'll save me from having to bump the thread.

My goodness you're full of yourself and some other stuff, Jon.

You appear to be delusional about being some sort of crusader of the internet.

You have the opportunity to prove your theory with scientific experiments. Why are you not doing this in an academic manner?

You will never have ANY credibility until you do so.

test2 wrote:

I made a significant typo. I meant to say that Canova training at altitude shows athletes increase plasma faster than they add red blood cells. So while both plasma and total red blood cell mass increase, hemoglobin concentration is actually observed to go down. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is Renato canova's observation for his athletes. I do not think it is the universal response of athletes trained at altitude, it's specific I suppose to super elite athletes undergoing a certain training regime. I probably should have specified that this what I was taking about in the initial post.

I remember Canova showed the blood numbers he measured of his athletes in training and competition. I think what you said here is consistent with what he showed. In addition, he also mentioned that there are some athletes (they are all elite level) that didn't response as much and they also gained less from training as shown in their competition results. Something like that.

What if African runners showed the ability to contract their spleen under running stress?

That's a what a racehorse can do. The only humans that have shown this ability thus far are Japanese female pearl divers.

Maybe a test of hematocrit during extreme intensity would show different results.

test2 wrote:

Look yourself in the mirror. You have shown no capacity for introspection or growth. Your ideas are static. I'm sorry to say this but I really don't see the point in responding to you anymore.

Baseless accustation. You simply aren't engaged in a serious debate over the things I have been trying to tell you.

Here's an extremely important question for you:

Do you not think that it's important to question the belief in so called 'Performance Enhancing Drugs'? Do you not think it is important to have a healthy skepticism?

Because if you don't, then you are a victim of the problem and you will never get resolution.

You might say it's a rhetorical question. But don't you see how you are a victim of the drug rhetoric?

You really should have a more open mind. And you really should learn some basic physiology.

Rotten Oranges wrote:

My goodness you're full of yourself and some other stuff, Jon.

You appear to be delusional about being some sort of crusader of the internet.

You have the opportunity to prove your theory with scientific experiments. Why are you not doing this in an academic manner?

You will never have ANY credibility until you do so.

Credibility eh? What is that in the academic world?

It's the same as in any other field, it's exposure and hype to generate more interest in whatever you are selling. It has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong.

test2 wrote:

Keep posting though, I'll save me from having to bump the thread.

Does that mean you have no interest in learning. Are you just pig headedly stubbornly, wilfully ignorant and that's the way you're going to stay for the rest of your life?

Here's some basic physiology you don't get;

RUNNING IS A SKILL.

You seem to be in denial of this fact? Does that mean you think you know better than experts in biomechanics and neuroscience?

Jon Orange wrote:

Rotten Oranges wrote:

My goodness you're full of yourself and some other stuff, Jon.

You appear to be delusional about being some sort of crusader of the internet.

You have the opportunity to prove your theory with scientific experiments. Why are you not doing this in an academic manner?

You will never have ANY credibility until you do so.

Credibility eh? What is that in the academic world?

It's the same as in any other field, it's exposure and hype to generate more interest in whatever you are selling. It has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong.

Much like this message board you mean?

disgraceful_admin wrote:

Interesting. Can you cite any articles that corroborate parts of your theory?

I started this thread hoping to find out which one of my assumptions was wrong. A surprising pending new study suggests it may be that EPO works at all in any level of athlete:

. In light of this, I'd like to put this issue on the back burner until more is published about that EPO study. For the present does anyone still care if I dig up citations for the rest of my assertions in the original postal as I promised?

test2 wrote:

I made a significant typo. I meant to say that Canova training at altitude shows athletes increase plasma faster than they add red blood cells. So while both plasma and total red blood cell mass increase, hemoglobin concentration is actually observed to go down. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is Renato canova's observation for his athletes. I do not think it is the universal response of athletes trained at altitude, it's specific I suppose to super elite athletes undergoing a certain training regime. I probably should have specified that this what I was taking about in the initial post.

It depends on whether you are a Tibetan, Bolivian, Peruvian, Ethiopian, Kenyan or a whiteboy.

It's better if you quote studies for each based on responses over time, and not generalize.

Maybe we can pick things back up from here:

Yeah, I dunno where Jon Orange's reasoning goes from where I stopped. I'd greatly appreciate it if he'd try to work his statement that 'elite runners use less oxygen' into equation form. In particularly

As a starting point, let's split the relative VO2max into absolute VO2max, VO2max_abs and mass. Then for a 'well trained' runner, we have (let's call this equation 1)

v = f(T) * e * VO2max_abs / mass (Equ. 1)

where,

v = speed [units: meter/min]

T = race duration [units: min]

VO2max_abs = maximal rate of total oxygen usage [units: mL/ min]

f(T) = fractional utilization [units: dimensionless]

-Daniels' has a functional form for this for a 'well trained' runner

e = efficiency [units: meter * kg / mL]

mass = body weight of runner [units: kg]

I think Jon would argue that after fractional utilization, absolute VO2max is the most trainable variable and that we should just assume that after 2 or 3 years of training it reaches a peak level. That leaves body mass and efficiency, e, as the only remaining variables. Is that what you are saying Jon?

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7047695&page=48#ixzz4EmTenAAy

it's been a while. Those are my words and equations, right?

Jon Orange wrote:

test2 wrote:

Keep posting though, I'll save me from having to bump the thread.

Does that mean you have no interest in learning. Are you just pig headedly stubbornly, wilfully ignorant and that's the way you're going to stay for the rest of your life?

Here's some basic physiology you don't get;

RUNNING IS A SKILL.

You seem to be in denial of this fact? Does that mean you think you know better than experts in biomechanics and neuroscience?

Dude, you claim you're rooted in science but have you ever cited a peer-reviewed publication to back up any of your posts?

Why don't you start, and maybe people will take you more seriously.

I disagree with you on other things but I think it's reasonable to say that elites can run X pace using less calories than a lesser trained but otherwise identical individual, not due to metabolic differences and hematocrit but due to a nervous system which is much more tuned to recruiting the most efficient ensemble of motor units for that pace. And this nervous system tuning takes miles and miles to refine, and is almost certainly influenced by genetics.

Yup, and questions that Jon never answered...

You seem to be in denial of this fact? Does that mean you think you know better than experts in biomechanics and neuroscience?

Jon, I know more about neuroscience than you ever will.

I asked you repeatedly to explain your statements in molecular terms.

You never did and never will.

Jon hasn't made much progress with this profound knowledge that he has had for a quarter of a century.

A repeated one paragraph rant every few months isn't much.

Maybe he preaches on a street corner too. I dunno.