Eliud - What 10000m shape ?

Flo'da boy wrote:

Wait wasn't Kipchoge in the 2011 race where Rupp ran his first 10k AR?

True but that was a good month after the season's peak. Alberto thought Galen Rupp's performance was 10+ seconds worse equivalent than in 80F heat in Daegu.

Marathon shape is not 10000m shape means that you are not trained to run at 10k pace when you are training for a marathon. However, when you are trained for a world record in the 10000m, as Bekele was, you could very well turn around and run a world record in the marathon (that 10k training will include plenty at marathon or slower but the important point is that you will not have to ask a pace of your legs that they are not trained to do--you can go a lot slower without difficulty; going a lot faster than your training is just not going to happen. So, 10k up, yes; marathon down, not without specific training for that. And of course Bekele might have needed more long runs and marathon pace workouts to get the world record at that time but he was in incredible shape compared to today.

He has run many great races and many great times. Why invent more?

Face it, he has not and probably will not, ever run a very fast 10000. There is nothing more silly the making up times that people did not run, especially when they have attempted the distance several times. You may have a spreadsheet but it's just fan fiction. First Mutai now EK. This is like the guys who give Rupp a low 12:50. It just did not happen.

Nothing more silly wrote:

He has run many great races and many great times. Why invent more? .....

Because it's LRC. If ^this didn't go on the forum would be nothing but posts about ostriches and Mottram's balls.

26:41

ventolin^3 wrote:

what 10000m shape is Eliud in ?

oh please wrote:

The interesting thing is that Eliud has never run a blazing 10000 or half, and he's done several of each (on fast and paced courses).

I don't think EK would run much faster than his PR, if even that, if he was to go out and run an even paced fast 10000. It seems like nonsense to say that a runner who has been a professional track runner for a decade would all of a sudden be a faster track runner after they switch to the marathon.

Radcliffe certainly got faster. Kipchoge has only run 5 top class 10,000s and his pb was set in 2007, when he was still relatively young. For whatever reason, he went off the boil after 2008 and didn't fulfil his track potential during the years 2009 - 2012 (injuries?). I'm firmly in the camp believing that if he returned to 10,000m training for a few months he'd be in 26:30 - 26:40 form come August. I'm a big Mo fan (not many of those round here!) but I don't think Mo could match that (although I'm sure Kamworor could!).

Did El G and Bekekle double back?

Bekele was focused on 5K training when he ran that 10K record. That is why many consider it a weak record, that is why Galen comes much closer to it than the 5K record.

Marathon training involves repeats at 10K pace or faster, at least the typical Kenyan way. A marathoner is more probable to run a good 10K than vice versa.

With good pacing, Kipchoge could dip under 27:00 right now.

If he spent 6 weeks doing 10,000 specific training (let's give him 2 weeks to recover from London first), he'd be in the 26:40 area I'd think.

Could he beat Kam, Mo, Bedan, Tanui or Rupp? Don't bet on it.

When Geoffroy Mutai was at his peak (between Boston and NY in 2011) he ran that BAA 10k in 27:19.

I don't think Kipchoge is a better runner now than Geoffroy was then. Remember he ran NY in 2:05 low without pacers and without anybody pushing him the last 10k. That is in my opinion a stronger performance than 2:03 low on a super flat London course with pace makers.

So I figure Kipchoge is good for about the same time on a road 10k, and maybe 26:50-27:00 on track. But 26:30? No way.

Geofftai wrote:

When Geoffroy Mutai was at his peak (between Boston and NY in 2011) he ran that BAA 10k in 27:19.

.

He also ran 27:30 at altitude that year which is quite good

Talent does go away wrote:

lame-o wrote:

kipchoge great example that talent doesn't go away.

burst on the scene with that 12:52 gold over El G and Bekele at 18 yrs old

That expression is used when someone loses form, not when they maintain for 13 straight years..

CORRECT!

Talent does indeed go away. Do folks really think that Bill Rogers currently has the talent to break 2:10? Because he certainly did at one time.

oh please wrote:

The interesting thing is that Eliud has never run a blazing 10000 or half, and he's done several of each (on fast and paced courses).

I don't think EK would run much faster than his PR, if even that, if he was to go out and run an even paced fast 10000. It seems like nonsense to say that a runner who has been a professional track runner for a decade would all of a sudden be a faster track runner after they switch to the marathon.

Carlos Lopes. Closer to two decades when he switched and then ran a race that was superior in many ways to the record at the time and then exceeded that record while being the second fastest of all time over 10k. the following year.

Alberto Salazar also set his best track times after becoming a Marathoner.

It's not nonsense at all.

He only ran a few 10k's. It looks like he took a dip in his career in 2009-2012 and then had a resurgance once he started the marathon. He was capable of better than 26:49 during his track career, obviously, given his p.r.s of 12:46 and 2:03. Tergat ran 12:49 and 2:04:55, and he ran 26:27. I would imagine in the right race at the right time during his track career, Kipchoge could have run at least that fast. With that said, if he runs the world record and wins Olympic gold, that puts him in the discussion for greatest distance runner of all-time, probably just behind Bekele and Geb.

How many marathoners have come back down to 10k without training specifically for it and run great times in this era? Specific training for 2:03, as I understand it, includes a lot of marathon pace 5k repeats, e.g. 5x5k@MP. I don't think that Canova, probably representative of coaches giving workouts at this level, gives them a lot of 10k or faster pacework.

We receive a lot of complaints on ventolin's posts. Then we often delete some of them and often the replies as well.

It's imperfect for sure.

jjjjjj wrote:

How many marathoners have come back down to 10k without training specifically for it and run great times in this era? Specific training for 2:03, as I understand it, includes a lot of marathon pace 5k repeats, e.g. 5x5k@MP. I don't think that Canova, probably representative of coaches giving workouts at this level, gives them a lot of 10k or faster pacework.

Training doesn't change based on your PR.

i will go back to his 10k pb which was in 07

back then he was a 5k guy & running that 10k more for fun off his 10k training as he didn't seriously contemplate 10k at majors until 12

he had no serious 10k before that 26'49

it's important to know the pacing that race

it was rubbish to 9k & at that point they were on for only ~ 27-flat at best !!!

it was a murderous last 1k where the winner was the shinester in a sprint over eliud by few tenths

i can assure you, if the pace had been fast from gun, the winning time wouda been

~ 26'35 / 26'40

all this off just 5k training & no serious 10k training !!!

he stayed with his 5k until '12 albeit ran some 10ks

this was bad year for him & changed history

he was definitely expected to get in top-3 in 10k in trials held in eugene but faded on last lap for 7th

we know he was in poor shape as in 5k he only finished 7th in trials when previous trial for majors he had no trouble making top-3 & team

he probably had undisclosed injury for '12

if he'd made 10k team, i doubt he wouda made move to roads & woud still be running 10k this year ( albeit he woudn't have beaten mo in '12 but '13 & 15 maya been different )

a poor '12 from likely injured has changed course of 10k & M history

sovietvest wrote:Radcliffe certainly got faster. Kipchoge has only run 5 top class 10,000s and his pb was set in 2007, when he was still relatively young

see above

For whatever reason, he went off the boil after 2008 and didn't fulfil his track potential during the years 2009 - 2012 (injuries?). I'm firmly in the camp believing that if he returned to 10,000m training for a few months he'd be in 26:30 - 26:40 form come August. I'm a big Mo fan (not many of those round here!) but I don't think Mo could match that (although I'm sure Kamworor could!)

nice to hear from you

i'm sure eliud was in 26'35/26'40 shape just off 5k training back in '07

off his M training, IMO he wouda murdered 26'35/26'40 if he'd run a track 10k on sunday, on warm, 0 wind day paced fast to 5k & solo last 5k

you don't post enough here which the board is poorer for

just some catch-up for you as we don't discuss enough together here :

- canova thinks Asbel can open up with 3'27+ in doha if he gets the pace ( 2'33/2'34 smoothly to bell is assumed )

i agree as i've seen vid of nearly all his 2nd lap on youtube

- Asbel shoud be hugely disappointed if he doesn't go 1'41+ this year as in best shape of life & running far more aggressively than ever

in fact, he is a genuine threat to the 800WR

- Kamwo IMO was in ~ 26'10 shape in cardiff in same conditions as above for a 10k

- lashawn IMO coud probably go 43.3/43.4 right now & running in drake relays this weekend

if not windy & not cold, he can run that if he wants to have an early season 400 blow-out & then just cruise from now until trials as the huge message wouda been sent to rest of 400m world

post some more, you offer huge amount to this board