Why should I think Boris Berian is clean?

I understand what your saying. But that 2x400m runner was after his big jump. I said up thread we need to know how he improved so much, and to know that we would need to compare his training before 1:48 and then his transition to a 1:43 guy. Training logs would satisfy me.

"My logic" is that a jump from 1:48 to 1:43 is suspicious. And so far, there are no details to explain it. I'm sure details exist, the guy wasn't abducted by aliens, but I cannot find them, and no one is sharing them. If you don't think the jump in performance is suspicious, so be it. But I do, and am in this thread saying that as it stands, with no explanation of how he made that jump, it is suspicious.

Clerk wrote:

I should correct myself. I kept saying 1:43 was his first race back, and am wrong.I see a 1:45 at Peyton Jordan and a 1:46 at ASU before his 1:43

Copied from a DenverPost article

[qupte]A look at how much Boris Berian has improved his 800-meter times:

1:52.18: Class 4A state championship, May 2011

1:48.93: Payton Jordan Invitational, April 2012

1:48.53: Seattle Husky Indoor Classic, February 2015

1:46.16: Sun Angel Track Classic, April 2015

1:45.3: Payton Jordan Invitational, May 2015

1:43.84: Adidas Grand Prix, June 2015

1:43.34: Monaco Diamond League,July 2015[/quote]

He is built like Symmonds. No need to lose any weight for 1:42 anyway.

college jr wrote:

They guy is pretty damn lean:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BCt6rDVMNOh/

Considering how much his raw speed/power plays into his 800m ability, I feel like losing an appreciable amount of muscle for him could be a disaster.

There's going to be suspicion about anyone with talent in this sport. My thoughts when he won were basically - this guy was unknown last March, how does this happen? One can never truly know what goes on in an athlete's training but he gets the benefit of doubt in my opinion because he runs for Vigil. He trains with Brenda. That's enough right there for me to assess more-likely-than-not clean status. Others will disagree and have their own opinions.

The dude screams dirty but he is American and likable with a cool story so we put our blinders on. Similar to Lagat.

I was wrong on Symmonds 400 PB. I was off by 0.2. Off the top of my head, I thought he ran 47.25 in IRL. It was 47.45. I stand by my statements that sub-47 demonstrates 800 metres talent. I concur with physiologists that 400 metres speed is far more indicative of 800 metres success than 1500 metres speed. Hicham el G., 3:26 1500 metres but couldn't break 146, 800 metres. Billy Konchellah, a solid low 1:43 800 metres man. Billy K. couldn't break 3:50 for 1500 metres. We all agree that the majority of sub-1:44 men are in the 400 metres PB range of 45 to 47. This thread was started doubting Berian's talent to race sub-1:44 cleanly. His 400 metres PB in 2011 demonstrates he does have natural 800 metres talent.

Are the drugs he needs really that cheap?

coach deez nuts wrote:

The dude screams dirty but he is American and likable with a cool story so we put our blinders on. Similar to Lagat.

Yeah, the blinders are really on.

As shown by multiple threads and dozens of posts accusing him of doping.

sdfggd wrote:

Are the drugs he needs really that cheap?

None of the accusers have addressed the question of which drugs he would be on.

Are anabolics going to address some limiting factor in 800 performance for a 165-pound 45.xx man? No. Think a little bit. Probably harmful if anything.

EPO? Don't be stupid.

So, what drug then? Vaguely throwing out the names of various peptides with no knowledge of their function is not an answer.

Clerk wrote:

must be aliens wrote:

I beat my college 5k PR by over 30 seconds as a 25 year old post collegiate. Was I doping? Same margin of improvement.

If you went from 13:35 to 13:05 in your first race back after 3 years, I would be suspicious.

I would be less suspicious if Berian went went from 1:55 to 1:50, or from 1:48 to 1:46, even with the 3 year gap. But many 800m specialists have their whole career and haven't cracked 1:44. Boris did it with more than just ease- he did it with a three year gap, the opposite of what should lead to better performances.

Out of interest then, what would you think of an improvement from say 1:50 to 1:45. Still not quite elite but an impressive improvement (and been done many times)

grow some wrote:

sdfggd wrote:

Are the drugs he needs really that cheap?

None of the accusers have addressed the question of which drugs he would be on.

Are anabolics going to address some limiting factor in 800 performance for a 165-pound 45.xx man? No. Think a little bit. Probably harmful if anything.

EPO? Don't be stupid.

So, what drug then? Vaguely throwing out the names of various peptides with no knowledge of their function is not an answer.

Well exactly, this is what I asked.

I think really what nobody wants to admit is that a great performance does not equal unfair advantage. One is completely possible without the other. There isn't really a correlation between athletes caught doping and wins at major meets. There are many, many athletes that have been caught and not won anything major in their careers. There are also many champions that are 100% clean (believe it or not Letsrun, some people are just more talented than you or anyone else).

So he dropped out out of Adams State and worked at a Fast food joint, then moved to Big Bear and goes from 1:48 to world champ in one years time.

HAHA everyone get your head out of the sand.

NorthPole wrote:

So he dropped out out of Adams State and worked at a Fast food joint, then moved to Big Bear and goes from 1:48 to world champ in one years time.

HAHA everyone get your head out of the sand.

It's like quitting after college to spend your free time smoking and hanging out in bars, then coming back to running after a few years to become the world's best marathoner.

improbable tales wrote:

NorthPole wrote:

So he dropped out out of Adams State and worked at a Fast food joint, then moved to Big Bear and goes from 1:48 to world champ in one years time.

HAHA everyone get your head out of the sand.

It's like quitting after college to spend your free time smoking and hanging out in bars, then coming back to running after a few years to become the world's best marathoner.

No it's not.

"Why should I think Boris is clean?"

Because that is the default position unless you have reason to believe otherwise.

If you have proof of something nefarious, report it here:

http://www.usada.org/athletes/playclean/

Nothing Boris has done seems suspicious to me. Most people don't improve as quickly as he did. Most people also never break 1:44 or 1:45 or 1:46. Most people who have broken those times didn't quit the sport, dick around and work at McDonalds either.

If you want to believe he is doping, you will probably be able to convince yourself that there is reason to believe he is. See: this thread.

improbable tales wrote:

NorthPole wrote:

So he dropped out out of Adams State and worked at a Fast food joint, then moved to Big Bear and goes from 1:48 to world champ in one years time.

HAHA everyone get your head out of the sand.

It's like quitting after college to spend your free time smoking and hanging out in bars, then coming back to running after a few years to become the world's best marathoner.

That is not far fetched. Steve Jones. Percy Cerutty for 100k.

sdfggd wrote:

Are the drugs he needs really that cheap?

Yes. A tube of Androgel is like $100. And as Alberto will tell you, a little testo goes a long way.

I worry that with the McDonalds story, we're being fed a narrative. All dopers have a narrative to justify their results. Just look how many narratives Paula has got going...

Anyway, the only thing Boris has got going for him is Brenda, I really think she's clean. But her being clean doesn't make him clean.

must be aliens wrote:

Clerk wrote:

So, what did he do in training in the 6,9 or 12 months before his 1:43 that he wasn't when he ran 1:48 in college? How was he unable to maintain that level in college but able to do it while sleeping on coaches and working at McDonalds?

I beat my college 5k PR by over 30 seconds as a 25 year old post collegiate. Was I doping? Same margin of improvement.

Congrats on going from sub sub sub sub elite to sub sub sub elite. I'm sure everyone was impressed with you sub16min clocking.

grow some wrote:

sdfggd wrote:

Are the drugs he needs really that cheap?

None of the accusers have addressed the question of which drugs he would be on.

Are anabolics going to address some limiting factor in 800 performance for a 165-pound 45.xx man? No. Think a little bit. Probably harmful if anything.

EPO? Don't be stupid.

So, what drug then? Vaguely throwing out the names of various peptides with no knowledge of their function is not an answer.

Right, anabolics would just turn a mid d runner into Mr Olympia, how could we be so stupid! I mean look at how huge 5'11 135 Rupp has gotten off AlSal's androgel!

No way they would simply assist a guy in the recovery from training the likes of which he has never done before after a 3 year break from competitive running....no sir, nothing to consider there.

We don't need a biochemistry PhD to smell BS.