It's too damn hard to run a sub 5 mile

lexel wrote:

OP , i have seen your Youttube videos from 2016.

Did you improve that subpar running form? (did not read everything here)

That alone would have done the trick.

The OP ran a 4:39.05 1500 in April with a 71" final lap. IMO, he could have gotten sub 5 that day.

Damn, you lost to a 194lb bodybuilder!

https://youtu.be/RnMcye_KcWI

Don Juan wrote:

Damn, you lost to a 194lb bodybuilder!

He would also have lost to a 10 year old boy and an 11 year old girl, but would have easily beaten Flo-Jo's 5K PR:

But hey, what do you expect from a fast twitch guy?

Choose the right race, and you won't DFL. There were 5 guys in this 8K race who didn't even break 41:

elusive dreams.... wrote:

Last week's log:

Sunday (8/29) - 7.75 mile long run

Monday (8/30) - 3 mile run, 5x200m at mile pace

Tuesday (8/31) - off

Wednesday (9/1) - 800m warm up, 2x100 at mile pace. 350m in 59", 3 min. rest, 350m in 61", 2 min. rest, 340m in 61", 1 min. rest, 200m in 36". 4.5 mile cooldown.

Thursday (9/2) - 6.75 mile run

Friday (9/3) - 4x100m, 4.5 mile cooldown

Saturday (9/4) - 800m warm up, 2x100 at mile pace, 2 miles in 11:57.6, 5000m cooldown

Total - 34 MPW

Do you ever do any reps longer than 400m? It's been said over and over you have the speed for sub 5 so just cranking out 100s and 200s all the time isn't getting you any closer. Someone suggested a block of training geared toward 5k which sounds right on the money. Get comfortable hurting for longer doing 800s and 1000s around 5k pace for a couple months!

big daddy wrote:

elusive dreams.... wrote:

Last week's log:

Sunday (8/29) - 7.75 mile long run

Monday (8/30) - 3 mile run, 5x200m at mile pace

Tuesday (8/31) - off

Wednesday (9/1) - 800m warm up, 2x100 at mile pace. 350m in 59", 3 min. rest, 350m in 61", 2 min. rest, 340m in 61", 1 min. rest, 200m in 36". 4.5 mile cooldown.

Thursday (9/2) - 6.75 mile run

Friday (9/3) - 4x100m, 4.5 mile cooldown

Saturday (9/4) - 800m warm up, 2x100 at mile pace, 2 miles in 11:57.6, 5000m cooldown

Total - 34 MPW

Do you ever do any reps longer than 400m? It's been said over and over you have the speed for sub 5 so just cranking out 100s and 200s all the time isn't getting you any closer. Someone suggested a block of training geared toward 5k which sounds right on the money. Get comfortable hurting for longer doing 800s and 1000s around 5k pace for a couple months!

I do reps longer than 400m, but only during track season and a month before the start of the season (maybe I should do them year-round?)

My recent block of training is geared towards the longer distances (hence the 2 mile PR yesterday). It's XC season, so I figured I might as well take advantage of the meets in the area and hop in some races this fall.

Today's workout was an 8 mile long run. That's my longest run (so far) this year.

I agree with several to increase the longer ability. you got advice to do 5xmile at 20% slower than mile pace (for 5.00 mile, 5xmile at 6.00 with 100m jog). I struggle with my mile pace, but can quite comfortably run 5xmile at 20% slower. But then I work on speed and strength, more than endurance. You seem to have the speed. If you can hit 5xmiles at 6.00 and still don't hit 5.00 you should work on the "5k" longer reps. Alternatively, you can use alternations for example 2x10 reps such as 200+200 at mile pace on in 200m and mile pace + 30% in 200. That can teach the body to cope with the speed endurance the last 2 laps.

I just did a sort of that workout and it felt comfortable enough, but I was breathing like a whale.

50-50 wrote:

lexel wrote:

OP , i have seen your Youttube videos from 2016.

Did you improve that subpar running form? (did not read everything here)

That alone would have done the trick.

This video was from last year. You be the judge!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1LBQKKMm4M

I see further improvement possibilities:

1) arm swing

2) foot landing

...

Times 1.08 wrote:

elusive dreams.. wrote:

...1500 earlier tonight and ran a 4:40 ... off of 28-29 MPW

That's the equivalent of a 5:02 mile. You're almost there, just bump the mileage up by another 5 MPW.

masters sub5 wrote:

With your speed you could run sub5 doing with 35 mpw.

big daddy wrote:

Do you ever do any reps longer than 400m? It's been said over and over you have the speed for sub 5 so just cranking out 100s and 200s all the time isn't getting you any closer. Someone suggested a block of training geared toward 5k which sounds right on the money.

I'm at 35 MPW now, which is the most I've done in the past 10 years. I also threw in a few slightly longer reps on Tuesday and will be racing an 8K tomorrow.

Last week's log:

Friday (9/3) - 4x100m at 600m pace, 4.5 mile cooldown

Saturday (9/4) - 800m warm up, 2x100 at mile pace, 2 miles in 11:57.6, 5000m cooldown

Sunday (9/5) - 8 mile long run

Monday (9/6) - 6 mile run

Tuesday (9/7) - 3 mile run, 500m, 600m, 500m with a 100m slow walk recovery (90"?) between the laps.

Wednesday (9/8) - off

Thursday (9/9) - 7 mile run

Total - 35.5 MPW

Today will probably be just a few easy strides and a short 2 mile run. Tomorrow morning's 8K will be on a flat course, but it's forecasted to be in the mid 80s at the start of the race and obviously get hotter and hotter as the day goes on. More motivation for me to finish it quickly and get out of the heat.

That'll be my first 8K race or time trial (guaranteed PR if I finish, yay!) I'm wondering what would be a good time to shoot for.

No taper, hot weather, poor endurance, and a first attempt? I'm guessing you'll be running a mid 34.

Good luck, though.

You nailed it with that time prediction - I did the strides and an easy 2 miler yesterday, and wound up getting a 34:36 8K this morning.

Aside from being fast-twitch oriented, I think that the main factor which hurt my performance was my complete lack of experience. I've run maybe two or three XC races in my life, and the most recent one before today was at least 16 years ago. Those races were all shorter than 5K, and even on the track, I've never time trialed or raced longer than 5000m.

I found it really hard to tell how slow or fast I was going until the end of mile 1, when I saw that my split was a few seconds under 6. From then on, it was a long painful slog to the finish, especially in the second half of the race. My 3-mile split was 20:06, and my 8K time was barely under 7 min/mile pace. On a slightly more positive note, I didn't DFL and barely avoided being in the bottom 10%.

The course was fairly flat but not completely flat. The highest point was around 45 feet higher than the lowest point on the course. Since you run that loop 3 times, there's about a 135' elevation gain & loss for the whole thing. The forecasted temp of 85 degrees was accurate; terrain was roughly 50% grass, 30% dirt, and 20% pavement.

I wonder what my track 5K time would be in a race under good weather conditions.

elusive dreams wrote:

I did the strides and an easy 2 miler yesterday, and wound up getting a 34:36 8K this morning.

Ouch. No offense, dude, but Jakob Ingebrigtsen has a greater chance of running a sub 4 mile pace for an entire 5K than you do of running sub 5 for one mile.

Well, you likely identified what is holding you back from that sub-5, so at least you have that! I tried again recently and am no closer. Actually didn’t even PR. Back to the drawing board. I’m not super fast-twitch, but also my endurance needs work, so I’ve got needs at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Bac to it soon though! Hoping we can both have success stories in a cycle or two.

silvery gold wrote:

Well, you likely identified what is holding you back from that sub-5, so at least you have that! I tried again recently and am no closer. Actually didn’t even PR. Back to the drawing board.

I looked through the thread and saw that you once ran a 5:06 road mile, but have never gone sub 5:20 on a track. What was your time on your latest attempt, and did you do it on the road or on the track?

A 5:06 means you've got hope, a 5:20 means you're SOL.

big daddy wrote:

Do you ever do any reps longer than 400m? It's been said over and over you have the speed for sub 5 so just cranking out 100s and 200s all the time isn't getting you any closer. Someone suggested a block of training geared toward 5k which sounds right on the money. Get comfortable hurting for longer doing 800s and 1000s around 5k pace for a couple months!

+1. I don't even think you need to "hurt" . Look at Jakob Ingebritsen's training, work at tempo of lactate threshold effort most days (lots of 4 x 4minutes) and one hard 1500-pace session at the weekend. Look at Klaas Lok's Easy Interval Method (cranking out 1ks quite often, at your one hour pace), using which Dan King cranked out an M60 world mile record of 4:51 in August (in Socal).

Your aerobic endurance is the weak link in your armour, your speed is ample, so work on it!

dead legs wrote:

silvery gold wrote:

Well, you likely identified what is holding you back from that sub-5, so at least you have that! I tried again recently and am no closer. Actually didn’t even PR. Back to the drawing board.

I looked through the thread and saw that you once ran a 5:06 road mile, but have never gone sub 5:20 on a track. What was your time on your latest attempt, and did you do it on the road or on the track?

A 5:06 means you've got hope, a 5:20 means you're SOL.

Thanks. Since then I’ve done 5:09 on the track, and yesterday was the road where I did 5:10, though I feel it wasn’t my best race. So clinging to a small amount of shrinking hope still.

You need longer intervals at race effort. Also 3k and 5k pace long intervals would help.

2x800m @ 1500 pace with 800 walk rest

3x 500m @ 1500 pace with 400 walk rest

2 sets of (5x300@ 1500 with 100m rest) 400 walk between sets

~~~~~

4x800m @ 3k pace with 400 jog rest

~~~~~

Ladder-

1600m @5k pace

1200m @ 5k pace

800m @ 3k pace

400m @ 1500 pace

300m @ 800 pace

200m @ 400 pace

Saturday (9/4) - 800m warm up, 2x100 at mile pace, 2 miles in 11:57.6, 5000m cooldown

BTW 2 laps is not much of a warmup to get your aerobic system good and primed. A mile or even a mile and a half would be much better, then some drills, will be much better both for workouts and races.

elusive dreams wrote:

I... wound up getting a 34:36 8K this morning.

...

I wonder what my track 5K time would be in a race under good weather conditions.

Apparently, I'm incredibly bad at XC, the 8K distance, running in the heat, or all of the above. I ran a solo 5K on the track the following night in 19:47, and that felt easier than the 34:36 8K.