Can someone explain to me the left's fetish with Islam?

Everyone's favorite republican, George Bush, appeared to have a bit of a 'fetish with Islam' as well..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koUTLXAITu8

I don't get it either, I consider myself liberal/left, I have severe problems with Islam because it is the exact opposite of that - and unlike in democracy, social change doesn't occur

Most lefties in my experience are 1) so scared to be thought racist or xenophobic that they basically don't hold foreign/brown/whatever (there's no clear definition - it's a religion!) to the same standards as they hold others or 2) they are so enamoured with anything "exotic" or "ethnic" and with "diversity" that they look past the huge problems with, uh, certain diverse opinions

Oh and 3) they honestly believe people are friendly and like them just a bit different. They don't understand real intolerance

Makes no sense to me

Chewbacca wrote:

No way there are more than three IP addresses among posters on this thread. Probably fewer.

Typical Chewie, unable to address the discussion, leaps to outside discussions and reasoning.

Chewbacca, before jumping to some argument regarding The Crusades, how do you rank order current modern religions in relation to their ability to co-exist with Western civilization?

Pull no punches, I want the true you to shine.

What? Why? wrote:

I don't get it. They oppress women. Kill homosexuals. They are the opposite of liberal. What is it about Islam that they like? The only thing that I can think of is that it's a deliberate poke in the eye of conservative Christians. Or maybe it's because that Islam has successfully subjugated complete control of its followers and liberals envy them for it?

I guess we can think of it as a silver lining. As bleak as it will be after they've slaughtered most of us and forced the rest to 'convert' to Islam, they'll be a small amount of satisfaction watching the conservative-hating Democrat woman walking around in their hijabs.

....ask Obama, he seems to be fascinated by the "JV team"

Just how in the world he could mix a comment on climate change at his presentation with Hollande of France on Tuesday (with ISIS as the main topic) left me tilting my head down and despairing of the future for any of you under 20

...and he got elected TWICE, 'way to go.

God help the USA & God help Western Civilization.

8pack wrote:

I don't get it either, I consider myself liberal/left, I have severe problems with Islam because it is the exact opposite of that - and unlike in democracy, social change doesn't occur

Most lefties in my experience are 1) so scared to be thought racist or xenophobic that they basically don't hold foreign/brown/whatever (there's no clear definition - it's a religion!) to the same standards as they hold others or 2) they are so enamoured with anything "exotic" or "ethnic" and with "diversity" that they look past the huge problems with, uh, certain diverse opinions

Oh and 3) they honestly believe people are friendly and like them just a bit different. They don't understand real intolerance

Makes no sense to me

yeah they will twist themselves in knots trying to decide if it's worse to against Islam because it's anti-woman, regressive etc.. or if they are racist for saying so. Just like the Left is so slow to criticize any AA for fear of being racist.

Look, black folks make mistakes and do bad things too, and calling them on it isn't racist, same with those from the Middle East. White leftists just seems to have a lot of self hate and contempt for what they know (white people, Christianity).

why does Islam get a pass among the liberals?

Several reasons - liberals feel that:

1) insulting other cultures is wrong

2) criticizing behaviour of people of color is wrong

3)the underlying problem lies invariably with rich white capitaliists.

4) muslims don't really believe in their religion - they are just sort of caught up in it. Because no rational person could take organized religion seriously.

it's mostly a feeling that it is wrong to criticize other cultures.

What? Why? wrote:

I don't get it. They oppress women. Kill homosexuals. They are the opposite of liberal. What is it about Islam that they like? The only thing that I can think of is that it's a deliberate poke in the eye of conservative Christians. Or maybe it's because that Islam has successfully subjugated complete control of its followers and liberals envy them for it?

It's a great question, and one that deserves a serious answer. I'll come at it from the perspective of a center/left academic. I don't think there's any one answer. I suspect that some or most of the following things are in play:

1) Edward Said's ORIENTALISM is a canonical text on the left. It explores the way in which "the Arab," among others, was historically "othered" by Western writers and thinkers, especially the French. We're all familiar with the words: mysterious, exotic, dark, cruel, etc. Leftists see orientalism at work in the way conservative Americans are quick to presume that all of Islam can be condensed into one image: swarthy, dark-eyed, suicide-bomb-wearing Islamic terrorist. They want to undercut that idea. So they become Islam's defenders--and go overboard in that direction

2) Since the evangelical right makes such a thing of insisting that America is a "Christian country," the Left works hard to dispute that. One way of disputing that is to argue against all religion: the new atheism. A second way, which totally contradicts the first--although the Left doesn't seem to notice this, or doesn't want to notice this--is to spend a lot of time arguing for the validity of Islam as a "great world religion." (I'm using quotes as a way of denoting a given received position, not a way of mocking those positions.) Leftists become Islam's defenders--and go overboard in that direction, ignoring the women-oppressing, free-speech-thwarting, anti-rational side that is radical Islam

3) The Israel/Palestine conflict. The Left is on the side of Palestine and the Palestinians, obviously. 85% of Palestinians are Muslims. To defend the Palestinian cause is ipso facto to defend Islam.

4) Islamic terrorists as "revolutionaries" and "liberators." Sad to say, but the dark side of the Left is an idealizing of Bad Boys, especially if they can in any way be construed as liberators. This was true in the days of the Weathermen; it's still true. For better or worse, radical Islam has come to seem in the West like one more version of Liberation Theology.

dingle wrote:

It's called tolerance.

Yes. We should all tolerate those who wish to kill women, homosexuals and those of other religions.

Stupid.

agip wrote:

why does Islam get a pass among the liberals?

Several reasons - liberals feel that:

1) insulting other cultures is wrong

2) criticizing behaviour of people of color is wrong

3)the underlying problem lies invariably with rich white capitaliists.

4) muslims don't really believe in their religion - they are just sort of caught up in it. Because no rational person could take organized religion seriously.

it's mostly a feeling that it is wrong to criticize other cultures.

Also, it doesn't.

Seems like you forgot that one.

Real Point wrote:

agip wrote:

why does Islam get a pass among the liberals?

Several reasons - liberals feel that:

1) insulting other cultures is wrong

2) criticizing behaviour of people of color is wrong

3)the underlying problem lies invariably with rich white capitaliists.

4) muslims don't really believe in their religion - they are just sort of caught up in it. Because no rational person could take organized religion seriously.

it's mostly a feeling that it is wrong to criticize other cultures.

Also, it doesn't.

Seems like you forgot that one.

hah

show me some lefties willing to criticize islam. I'd love to be proven wrong.

I'll agree that there's a bit of a movement against female genital mutilation but that's not really islamic as much as geographic.

whereas there are any hundreds of protests against Israel because they are white.

agip wrote:

Real Point wrote:

Also, it doesn't.

Seems like you forgot that one.

hah

show me some lefties willing to criticize islam. I'd love to be proven wrong.

I'll agree that there's a bit of a movement against female genital mutilation but that's not really islamic as much as geographic.

whereas there are any hundreds of protests against Israel because they are white.

Every single liberal-minded person that I know (including myself) is quite willing to criticize Islam. I suppose that you could weasel out of the obvious by then claiming that "Oh, then you folks are not actually 'lefties'." But that would be incredibly lame.

So, there is your answer - EVERY "lefty" that I know has no hesitation in criticizing Islam.

Perhaps you were referring to that little bogeyman in your head whom you call Lefty?

The left is anti-reason, ant-individualism, and anti-capitalism, i.e. anti-all the things that America and the West traditionally stand for. The left defends Islam because it's at war with the American and the West.

The Left has no fetish for Islam. The Left has simply pointed out that Islam is not a monolithic religion where everyone is in lock step with the most radical elements. Conservatives just cannot come up with an answer to the very consistent attack Liberals have made on the influence of US policy on the rise of radical Islam so they turn it into a game of "why can't you blame Islam".

Noam Chomsky has consistently skewered the US for strongly supporting Saudi Arabia and has identified this support as being one of the main factors behind the rise of radical Islam.

Kevin Drum of Mother Jones has also correctly pointed out that the Saudi version of Islam is the problem, not all of Islam:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/10/we-have-saudi-arabia-problem-not-islam-problem

Liberals simply point out that you cannot condemn an entire religion (and people who practice that religion) because a minority follow an extreme fundamentalist interpretation.

The Syrian civil war did not start when Islamist took to the street to demand Sharia law and replacing Assad with an Ayatollah. The Syrian civil war started with demonstrators demanding democratic reform, the release of political prisoners and the end of the Assad regime. The demonstrations were lead by students, liberal and human rights activists.

The Syrian activists were inspired by the successful revolution in Tunisia. In Tunisia, the revolution was primarily lead by trade unionists who were later joined by lawyers and other professionals. They sought democratic and economic reforms and more freedoms. They were largely successful and have been under attack by ISIS as a result.

So, when you condemn Islam, you condemn not just ISIS and the Saudi Whabi sect, you condemn the brave activists in Syria and Tunisia who want nothing more than the same democracy and freedom we have. That is wrong.

Real Point wrote:

agip wrote:

hah

show me some lefties willing to criticize islam. I'd love to be proven wrong.

I'll agree that there's a bit of a movement against female genital mutilation but that's not really islamic as much as geographic.

whereas there are any hundreds of protests against Israel because they are white.

Every single liberal-minded person that I know (including myself) is quite willing to criticize Islam. I suppose that you could weasel out of the obvious by then claiming that "Oh, then you folks are not actually 'lefties'." But that would be incredibly lame.

So, there is your answer - EVERY "lefty" that I know has no hesitation in criticizing Islam.

Perhaps you were referring to that little bogeyman in your head whom you call Lefty?

find me some prominent lefties who are willing to criticize islam. I don't really care about what 4 guys in a dorm room say.

agip wrote:

Real Point wrote:

Every single liberal-minded person that I know (including myself) is quite willing to criticize Islam. I suppose that you could weasel out of the obvious by then claiming that "Oh, then you folks are not actually 'lefties'." But that would be incredibly lame.

So, there is your answer - EVERY "lefty" that I know has no hesitation in criticizing Islam.

Perhaps you were referring to that little bogeyman in your head whom you call Lefty?

find me some prominent lefties who are willing to criticize islam. I don't really care about what 4 guys in a dorm room say.

Resorting to ad hominem attacks, agip? I am extremely disappointed in you.

For the record, I am a 54 year old successful businessman with a master's degree in physics. Nearly all of the friends to whom I refer are between the ages of 40 and 70, all are quite successful in business or academics and nearly all have advanced degrees in technical fields from top universities such as Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, Princeton, CalTech. Without going through an official count I would say with confidence I have accurately represented well over 100 individuals here.

So again, perhaps you were referring to that little bogeyman in your head whom you call Lefty?

Real Point wrote:

agip wrote:

find me some prominent lefties who are willing to criticize islam. I don't really care about what 4 guys in a dorm room say.

Resorting to ad hominem attacks, agip? I am extremely disappointed in you.

For the record, I am a 54 year old successful businessman with a master's degree in physics. Nearly all of the friends to whom I refer are between the ages of 40 and 70, all are quite successful in business or academics and nearly all have advanced degrees in technical fields from top universities such as Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, Princeton, CalTech. Without going through an official count I would say with confidence I have accurately represented well over 100 individuals here.

So again, perhaps you were referring to that little bogeyman in your head whom you call Lefty?

accusation of adolescence withdrawn.

zo...can you cite for me some prominent lefties criticizing islam?

I'll start for you - Maher. Roy cited some weak sauce criticism of Saudi Arabia in Mother Jones.

I'm sure there are a few more out there, but I suppose we have to agreee that it is very very rare for lefties to criticize third world, people of color for doing just about anything. They are the anointed and the excused.

As for bogeymen and whatnot - I'm in my late 40s and probably voted for 1 republican my whole life. I actively search for the middle ground.

To help you out here just a bit (and really, your willful ignorance on this topic can only be broken by your own willful effort to wrestle with reality instead of fighting that little bogeyman 'lefty' who resides in your head) the following individuals are certainly liberals:

Bill Maher

Richard Dawkins

Sam Harris

They are also very well known. And VERY critical of Islam.

Now, please begin to think more clearly. You can start here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/10/bill-maher-dangerous-critique-of-islam-ben-affleck/381266/

Of course, it IS much easier to see the world in simplistic terms. But truthfully I had developed the impression over time that you were one of the few posters here on LRC who had a bit of respect for truth. Prove me right.