Chicago better or worse without pacers?

True of Kiprotich too but there seem to be quite a few guys who ran 2:04 to 2:05 once and never did much again. Guys like Meb and Kiprotich are ready to compete in slower races on tougher courses. To the other posters point, though,That does not mean Puskedra or Hartmann can win NYC.

Boston, NYC, Olympic silver wrote:

The judge... wrote:

I have seen this argument several times on this thread and I just don't buy it. All it does is make the American finish closer in time to the winner, but a guy who is 2:10 at best isn't going to beat a field of 2:04 runners in a slow race. Not gonna happen.

Ever heard of an American named Meb Keflezghi?

The judge... wrote:

*stipe wrote:

2. An American now has a better chance to win a 2:09 race on a 2:04-2:05 course.

I have seen this argument several times on this thread and I just don't buy it. All it does is make the American finish closer in time to the winner, but a guy who is 2:10 at best isn't going to beat a field of 2:04 runners in a slow race. Not gonna happen.

Well if enough Americans have a chance to finish closer in time to the winner, then the might have a better chance to win. Of course, the faster runner will always be most likely to win. While neither had much of a chance of winning, Luke had a better chance of winning this year than Ritz did a couple years ago.

If one of the objectives is to have more Americans in contention, then I think the lack of pacers will be more likely to produce that.

What about the women's race? Nothing prevented Fukushi from stepping on the gas pedal mile 1. The women took it out on sub 2:20 pace without pacers and six women took the bait and followed Fukushi. Kiplagat's 2:23 is not terribly slow, either. Last year, the women had pacers who were supposed to go out in 1:09 and that plan tanked almost immediately. I get that women can draft off of the men in front of them, but still . . . they went after it and it was fun to watch.

I think the RD should up the prize money (or time bonus $$) and then see what happens. Personally, I am a fan of watching athletes watch each other and battle each other - not simply time trial a marathon. I do worry about Chicago being able to recruit the 2:04 guys, but let's wait and see.

As far as athletes saying they were not told about Chicago dropping pacers, I'd probably take a deeper look at the agents . . . some of these guys probably didn't communicate that to their athletes because all they care about is their cut. That's a cynical view, anyway.

Boston, NYC, Olympic silver wrote:

The judge... wrote:

I have seen this argument several times on this thread and I just don't buy it. All it does is make the American finish closer in time to the winner, but a guy who is 2:10 at best isn't going to beat a field of 2:04 runners in a slow race. Not gonna happen.

Ever heard of an American named Meb Keflezghi?

Sure, but not only is his PR faster than 2:10, he's never had a marathon where he ran it for time.

One reason people choose Chicago over New York is to run a fast time.

Otherwise, New York has more history and is more prestigious.

A world class marathoner has 3 main choices for a fall marathon:

Berlin, New York and Chicago

They race New York for its tradition or go to Chicago or Berlin to run fast.

Without the promise of a fast pace (and assuming equal appearance money) why pick Chicago over New York or Berlin?

There is also Amsterdam and Frankfurt in the fall.

Chicago's status will go down if it's not seen as a place to run a fast time.

A fast time helps with their next appearance fee.

Without the fast time, a Chicago win is not worth the same as a New York win.

With the wind they had this year, if they had pacers, Chumba wins in 2:06, Luke runs 2:11 and gets ZERO camera time. I'll take no pacers. At least the clean guys then get a chance for sub-2:10 in good conditions.

Star wrote:

They race New York for its tradition or go to Chicago or Berlin to run fast.

Without the promise of a fast pace (and assuming equal appearance money) why pick Chicago over New York or Berlin?

There is also Amsterdam and Frankfurt in the fall.

Chicago's status will go down if it's not seen as a place to run a fast time.

A fast time helps with their next appearance fee.

The problem is - Chicago is a fast course but only if conditions are perfect (no wind, moderate temps, no rain). You get that about 2 out of 10 years.

In Berlin you have perfect conditions 8 out of 10 years.

Frankfurt is very similar. Amsterdam is a bit more of a question mark in terms of wind...

The way I see it they're trying to beat New York at its own game. Chicago has a naturally faster course. Americans running their debut have only gone to New York for the bigger appearance fee. The problem is they can't easily compete with Berlin for a paced race. What are they left to do? I think if they have to gamble between cheaply competing with NYC or expensively with Berlin they're going to choose NYC, especially if it means bolstering more interest domestically.

What happens if Chicago saves enough money to attract better or more entrants next year? You get an Olympic year where many top international marathoners don't show up to Chicago due to its close proximity to the Olympics, but plenty of developing Americans or those just missing Olympic qualification at numerous distance events decide to take a stab.

This new wave of world records was fun while it lasted, but can we really expect it to continue? What happens if the records stop coming? Then we're just having duels amid slower times anyway. Perhaps Chicago is gambling on this being inevitable and trying to save money. Even when they tried to bring a world record to Chicago, Berlin routinely won out. The best Chicago race in recent memory was Wanjiru/Kebede and it wasn't because of the fast time.

You are on it!

Up the the time bonus money, make it crazy attractive if your not going to enlist pacers. The non paced events will not become a trend.

Paced races for the most part have been very exciting competitions vs run away lone runner events.

BTW ,why has not anyone mentioned Deena getting pacing help from Alexi?

Without pacers, Farah might actually win a marathon.

Kidding aside, if Chicago can't match Berlin as a WR destination, why not put all the pacer money into a huge pot for a CR. Mutai's NY CR was awesome.

If Chicago does away with pacers permanently, is this an opportunity for another North American city to establish itself as the place to go for fast times? With cooler conditions, perhaps Toronto step it up. Houston, maybe? Or a wild card could be some relatively small race run under prime conditions that decides to go big. Or even a Fukuoka-style elite race. Lots of ramifications from this choice.

WMMs should have Pacers, make it universal.

There need to be aspirational races. The Kenyans could sue Pinkowski because with such a competitive market, jeopardizing their short careers with a personal decision to not have rabbits ruined everyone's season except for the winners and except for a guy like Puskedra.

I like that it's more like a championship race, but here's the deal - it's not a championship race: it's Chicago. There are rabbits for the 2:45, 3:00, 3:15, 3;30 groups, and for all the Women. Let the best have their rabbits and make some exceptional racing.

Bored on Friday, just wanted to see the splits:

Wind mattered, apparently.

Name First half, Finish time, Second Half, Difference

#### means negative split (Excel didn't want to do negative time)

1 » Chumba, Dickson (KEN) 1:05:13 2:09:25 1:04:12 ##### :- 0:61

2 » Kitwara, Sammy (KEN) 1:05:13 2:09:50 1:04:37 ##### -0:36

3 » Ndungu, Sammy (KEN) 1:05:13 2:10:06 1:04:53 ##### -0:20

4 » Gebru, Girmay Birhanu (ETH) 1:05:13 2:10:07 1:04:54 ##### -0:19

5 » Puskedra, Luke (USA) 1:05:14 2:10:24 1:05:10 ##### -0:04

6 » Korir, Wesley (KEN) 1:05:13 2:10:39 1:05:26 0:00:13

7 » Kibet, Elkanah (USA) 1:05:13 2:11:31 1:06:18 0:01:05

8 » Rotich, Lucas (KEN) 1:05:13 2:13:39 1:08:26 0:03:13

9 » Kuma, Abera (ETH) 1:05:13 2:13:44 1:08:31 0:03:18

10 » Cabada, Fernando (USA) 1:05:53 2:15:36 1:09:43 0:03:50

11 » Adams, Liam (AUS) 1:05:53 2:16:29 1:10:36 0:04:43

12 » Richards, Malcolm (USA) 1:07:42 2:16:41 1:08:59 0:01:17

13 » Wietecha, Scott (USA) 1:07:52 2:17:02 1:09:10 0:01:18

14 » Watson, Rob (CAN) 1:05:55 2:17:21 1:11:26 0:05:31

15 » Migliozzi, Tony (USA) 1:07:52 2:17:44 1:09:52 0:02:00

16 » Lemon, Chris (USA) 1:07:52 2:18:06 1:10:14 0:02:22

17 » Ripley, Zach (USA) 1:09:09 2:18:26 1:09:17 0:00:08

18 » Macpherson, Scott (USA) 1:06:56 2:18:34 1:11:38 0:04:42

19 » Shaw, Ethan (USA) 1:07:52 2:19:33 1:11:41 0:03:49

20 » Geoghegan, Patrick (USA) 1:07:52 2:19:38 1:11:46 0:03:54

21 » Yoshii, Satoshi (JPN) 1:05:53 2:20:33 1:14:40 0:08:47

22 » Kanezane, Shogo (JPN) 1:06:57 2:20:40 1:13:43 0:06:46

23 » Bohach, Adam (USA) 1:08:49 2:20:58 1:12:09 0:03:20

24 » Lizano, Cesar (CRC) 1:09:08 2:21:09 1:12:01 0:02:53

25 » Havel, Kevin (USA) 1:08:48 2:21:57 1:13:09 0:04:21

26 » Fellows, Donovan (USA) 1:09:09 2:22:05 1:12:56 0:03:47

27 » Jermann, Tyler (USA) 1:09:09 2:22:26 1:13:17 0:04:08

28 » Williams, Andy (USA) 1:11:34 2:22:54 1:11:20 #####

29 » Mull, Brandon (USA) 1:09:08 2:22:54 1:13:46 0:04:38

30 » Hrezi, Mohamed (USA) 1:09:08 2:23:14 1:14:06 0:04:58

31 » McGuire, Ryan (USA) 1:08:48 2:23:18 1:14:30 0:05:42

32 » Guillen, Ramiro (USA) 1:09:53 2:23:33 1:13:40 0:03:47

34 » Pannone, Christopher (USA) 1:09:16 2:23:38 1:14:22 0:05:06

36 » Barrett, Matt (USA) 1:09:18 2:23:43 1:14:25 0:05:07

37 » Peters, Nathan (USA) 1:09:10 2:24:02 1:14:52 0:05:42

38 » Julia, Jaime (USA) 1:10:28 2:24:03 1:13:35 0:03:07

39 » Varela, Jonnathan (CRC) 1:09:21 2:24:13 1:14:52 0:05:31

42 » O'Connor, Teage (USA) 1:10:48 2:24:31 1:13:43 0:02:55

43 » Thompson, Christian (USA) 1:08:49 2:24:36 1:15:47 0:06:58

45 » Kremske, Dan (USA) 1:09:10 2:24:42 1:15:32 0:06:22

46 » Wallor, Eric (USA) 1:09:00 2:24:59 1:15:59 0:06:59

47 » Shields, Rex (USA) 1:08:49 2:25:09 1:16:20 0:07:31

49 » Cu Cacao, Elvin (GUA) 1:09:03 2:25:22 1:16:19 0:07:16

50 » Eustance, Tyler (USA) 1:11:44 2:25:26 1:13:42 0:01:58

51 » Briot, Thomas (FRA) 1:12:55 2:25:29 1:12:34 ##### -0:21

52 » Petrak, David (USA) 1:09:51 2:25:50 1:15:59 0:06:08

53 » Yilma, Yon (USA) 1:09:52 2:25:57 1:16:05 0:06:13

54 » Bechtol, Keith (USA) 1:09:05 2:26:13 1:17:08 0:08:03

55 » Davy, Matthew (AUS) 1:12:54 2:26:21 1:13:27 0:00:33

56 » Cook, Riley (USA) 1:08:49 2:26:26 1:17:37 0:08:48

57 » Beamer, Matthew (USA) 1:13:28 2:26:39 1:13:11 ##### -0:17

58 » Root, Ryan (USA) 1:11:29 2:26:46 1:15:17 0:03:48

59 » Glaz, Daniel (USA) 1:09:10 2:26:55 1:17:45 0:08:35

60 » Kettler, Michael (USA) 1:11:34 2:27:13 1:15:39 0:04:05

61 » Russeau, Alex (USA) 1:09:09 2:27:28 1:18:19 0:09:10

62 » Hird, Nick (USA) 1:12:12 2:27:29 1:15:17 0:03:05

63 » Finnel, Brian (USA) 1:11:53 2:27:33 1:15:40 0:03:47

64 » Hamilton, Joel (USA) 1:13:36 2:27:37 1:14:01 0:00:25

65 » Penny, J (USA) 1:14:17 2:27:38 1:13:21 #####

66 » Turner, Wesley (USA) 1:13:13 2:27:45 1:14:32 0:01:19

68 » Newman, Zac (AUS) 1:13:12 2:28:03 1:14:51 0:01:39

69 » Sharkey, Bryan (USA) 1:14:03 2:28:11 1:14:08 0:00:05

70 » Edinger, Nick (USA) 1:12:55 2:28:20 1:15:25 0:02:30

71 » Hanson, Erik (USA) 1:12:21 2:28:21 1:16:00 0:03:39

72 » Jr. Ries, Tommy (USA) 1:11:14 2:28:24 1:17:10 0:05:56

73 » Favela, Emisael (MEX) 1:14:06 2:28:24 1:14:18 0:00:12

74 » Watson, Sean (USA) 1:13:49 2:28:35 1:14:46 0:00:57

75 » Lerma, Jordan (USA) 1:13:17 2:28:44 1:15:27 0:02:10

77 » Rivero, Luis (GUA) 1:09:53 2:29:16 1:19:23 0:09:30

78 » Johnson, Scott (USA) 1:14:05 2:29:31 1:15:26 0:01:21

79 » Campos, Jesus (USA) 1:13:59 2:29:54 1:15:55 0:01:56

81 » Bradley, Sam (GBR) 1:14:00 2:30:13 1:16:13 0:02:13

82 » Lopez, Mynor (GUA) 1:08:49 2:30:28 1:21:39 0:12:50

83 » Valenzona, Damon (USA) 1:14:03 2:30:28 1:16:25 0:02:22

84 » Boyer, Lane (USA) 1:09:52 2:30:42 1:20:50 0:10:58

85 » Vanos, William (USA) 1:14:05 2:30:52 1:16:47 0:02:42

86 » Neff, Jackson (USA) 1:15:18 2:30:52 1:15:34 0:00:16

87 » Schneider, Ben (USA) 1:13:16 2:30:57 1:17:41 0:04:25

88 » Beausoleil, Logan (USA) 1:13:10 2:31:05 1:17:55 0:04:45

89 » Torphy, Bobby (USA) 1:14:22 2:31:10 1:16:48 0:02:26

91 » Knutson, Mike (USA) 1:14:52 2:31:25 1:16:33 0:01:41

92 » Vanbruggen, Mitch (USA) 1:13:26 2:31:28 1:18:02 0:04:36

93 » Kuhlmann, Patrick (USA) 1:14:05 2:31:28 1:17:23 0:03:18

95 » Wilber, Matthew (USA) 1:13:15 2:31:47 1:18:32 0:05:17

96 » Norton, Joseph (USA) 1:14:04 2:31:53 1:17:49 0:03:45

97 » Tomita, Shohei (JPN) 1:10:22 2:32:02 1:21:40 0:11:18

98 » Cabada, Lupe (USA) 1:14:04 2:32:11 1:18:07 0:04:03

99 » Kurek, Justin (CAN) 1:15:47 2:32:17 1:16:30 0:00:43

100 » Danaher, Mike (USA) 1:14:01 2:32:26 1:18:25 0:04:24

"You get an Olympic year where many top international marathoners don't show up to Chicago due to its close proximity to the Olympics,"

Three out of how many Kenyans and same for Etho's get to run the Olympics. So maybe the cream won't be there ( and who knows about the Kenyans with the way they pick teams), but plenty of fine options available. And as for the rest of the nations, who really cares.