Jim Ryun last quarter in Dusseldorf- From Ryun Himself. "The last 400 was 49 seconds."

Basically, he was a white, American-born runner who was amazing in high school; the LetsRun wet dream of middle distance runners.

This trumps all other runners ever according to this forum (and probably any runner in the future).

troll detector wrote:

Not deano either wrote:

His talent didn't even transcend his own era.

Yeah it did.

No it didn't. He immediately tanked in the no-amphetamines era that started in mexico city.

60's doping is the elephant in the room of track.

I am laughing at all the suggestions I have already posted on here under 2 names! Lol. I haven't. This is my first post. I am reluctant to voice any opinion on a thread about Ryun, as I can guarantee it will be swiftly followed by a tirade of abuse from you know who. I have already been told I am stalking and bullying him! So I don't really want to engage in conversation with him.

All I will say is that Ryun was indeed a freak of nature and ahead of his time. He was capable of faster on synthetic tracks. I personally don't believe his performances were worth a second faster per lap on cinders, and that is based on discussions I have had with elite athletes and athletic journalists and statisticians.

I do think that in a similar context (same pace, drafting, being in top form, etc), there have been other athletes who could run a last lap in 50.5 in a 3:38 race. This is based on what they have done in other races with a different build up. You have to remember that Ryun's 3 rd lap was only around 59/60 sec.

Bile ran a last lap in 51 and bits in a 3:36.8, with the previous 400 under 54.0.

That is equally impressive as Ryun's accomplishment.

Aouita supposedly ran a 36.1 last 300 in a 3:34.8, but I question that a bit.

Coe and Cram both ran a 50 and bits last 400 in the European champs in 86. Cram ran a lot of extra distance and his finishing time of 3:41.0 was more like 3:38/3:39 when extra distance taken into account. Coe ran an extra 25 m, meaning his final time was equivalent to a 3:37 in lane 1.

El G, Morceli (has run faster last laps in faster overall races) and Kiprop are also capable of similar times over the last 400m.

So, yes, I believe that a handful of athletes could have managed it, perhaps not in the same way, but nonetheless, Ryun is certainly in a very lofty position with the all time greats.

His shape/potential on that day is meaninglessThis sport is about competition. A big aspect to being a miler is tactical ability and performing your best on the biggest stage (Olympics). Clutch is key! Some athletes, the best, rise to the occasion of big competion, for track, it's the Olympics. Ryun will forever be remembered as a great talent, but not a great champion.

Sure he ran a good last lap in Germany, but it was also pointless. He had the race won, and it was not a record pace. It was a small, meaningless meet. What's a million times more impressive is laying down a fast last lap in a big race and using it to win a tight race, like Cacho in 92 Olympics or Coe in 80 Olympics.

logician wrote:

GoldenMiles wrote:

Okay, first off, what proof is there that his shape that summer was better than anyone else ever?

His races.

GoldenMiles wrote:

And even if he was in better shape than anyone else that summer, one summer doesn't make one the GOAT.

Yes it does.

Well, at least you stand by your opinion. I think we'll have to agree to disagree about what constitutes the GOAT.

Certainly you're not alone here. I see that the undoubtedly insanely talented Jim Ryun has a huge fanbase on these boards.

[quote]Brit miler wrote:

From the ever growing list of talented US milers without Olympic gold, is Ryun the best you Yanks can offer up?

Yes, actually Centro is coming and look at those Brits recently! Put all of your athletes in about two sports and you should have some success. Congratulations on that!!! Come on over with Basketball, Football (the real football), baseball, softball, volleyball, etc. and see how the "Yanks" match up.

logician wrote:

GoldenMiles wrote:

Okay, first off, what proof is there that his shape that summer was better than anyone else ever?

His races.

GoldenMiles wrote:

And even if he was in better shape than anyone else that summer, one summer doesn't make one the GOAT.

Yes it does.

No and no.

reader of the forums wrote:

As noted earlier in the thread, the olympics is one meet. Its importance is overrated.

Only a non-professional athlete would say this.

Ask the top men and women and they all say that the Olympic Games are the pinnacle of an athlete's career.

Kennis Dimetto wrote:

reader of the forums wrote:

As noted earlier in the thread, the olympics is one meet. Its importance is overrated.

Only a non-professional athlete would say this.

Ask the top men and women and they all say that the Olympic Games are the pinnacle of an athlete's career.

Appeal to authority fallacy. Classic.

You'll have to do better.

reader of the forums wrote:

Kennis Dimetto wrote:

Only a non-professional athlete would say this.

Ask the top men and women and they all say that the Olympic Games are the pinnacle of an athlete's career.

Appeal to authority fallacy. Classic.

You'll have to do better.

Erm... No, I don't.

Listen to or read interviews with top athletes and notice what they say about the Olympic Games.

Appeal to authority is not a logical fallacy. We have to appeal to qualified authorities all the time. The logical fallacy is appeal to UNQUALIFIED authority. A typical example would be: Letsrun Poster says that Aouita didn't close in 36. Therefore, he didn't close in 36. I doubt he did but I don't have any evidence and neither does he.

We still don't get the full last lap but that is different footage from what we saw before, from the beginning and some from the beginning of the last lap.

Kennis Dimetto wrote:

reader of the forums wrote:

Appeal to authority fallacy. Classic.

You'll have to do better.

Erm... No, I don't.

Listen to or read interviews with top athletes and notice what they say about the Olympic Games.

You're simply repeating yourself now. An argument stands on its merit. The person making an argument is irrelevant to the argument's soundness.

So again, you'll have to do better.

jjjjjj wrote:

Appeal to authority is not a logical fallacy. We have to appeal to qualified authorities all the time. The logical fallacy is appeal to UNQUALIFIED authority. A typical example would be: Letsrun Poster says that Aouita didn't close in 36. Therefore, he didn't close in 36. I doubt he did but I don't have any evidence and neither does he.

No.

It's a fallacy when the authorities opinion about something is cited as if it's a sufficient condition for that thing being true.

there is no time, jump, vault, throw, or race from the late 60's that is more impressive than any that has happened in the last 15-ish years. Why do you seem to think that Ryun is some exception to this? Why does anyone think this?is it some mythology that cannot be proven so it apparently carries incredible weight for some people?

Jim Ryun GOAT? wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdaKzMGroHs

Go to 2minutes in, "The last quarter was 49 seconds."

This should put the debate about his kick in this race to rest. His talent transcends eras!

An appeal to an Unqualified Authority looks much like a legitimate appeal to authority, but it violates at least one of the three necessary conditions for such an appeal to be legitimate:1. The authority is an expert in the area of knowledge under consideration.2. The statement of the authority concerns his or her area of mastery.3. There is agreement among experts in the area of knowledge under consideration.

atheism.about.com/od/logicalfallacies/a/authority_3.htm

jjjjjj wrote:

An appeal to an Unqualified Authority looks much like a legitimate appeal to authority, but it violates at least one of the three necessary conditions for such an appeal to be legitimate:1. The authority is an expert in the area of knowledge under consideration.2. The statement of the authority concerns his or her area of mastery.3. There is agreement among experts in the area of knowledge under consideration.

atheism.about.com/od/logicalfallacies/a/authority_3.htm

An appeal to authority is fallacious when the authority's opinion about something is cited as if it's a sufficient condition for that thing being true (Common Sense et al, 2015).

The fact that now another segment from the USA - Germany track meet from 1967 at Dusseldorf has emerged, with different parts of Ryun's race, including the start, suggests that the whole thing will emerge soon enough.

Track and Field News one of the most meticulous editors of the sport published a book on the history of the mile. The Dusseldorf race is written about and 2 of the 3 watches used trackside had his last 400 meters under 50. Since no one had ever come close to this they used the time of the 3rd watch. When you consider that the finish was against to of the best kicker of the day, Bodo Tummler and Harold Norpoth and the distance between them at the end. They either chose to jog or there must be serious consideration to the sub 50 last lap.

Unless of course you have a film of the whole race.