Who wins if all the best US milers from the last 50 years could race each other in their prime?

HardLoper wrote:

Jim Ryun.

What is the argument for Ryun beating Lagat? Lots of votes for Ryun, not much explanation.

In their prime - competing as an American

Alan Webb

In his fitness at the 2007 USATF 1500

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5i_xNDhOaM

That's a tactical race where he lead the first 800 and had a big surge at the end that went 3:34.

Lagat won Gold later that year. Webb just wasn't right at that point, though. I think Webb would have won in Osaka.

The question wasn't about consistency.

It's one race, all at their best.

I'm taking Webb.

(Centro may not have hit his prime yet, so this can be updated)

1. Lagat. Pick a year from 2005 to 2007, I don't think it matters. He won Worlds in '07 in the 1500, not other American can say that. (James Lightbody and Mel Sheppard won Olympic gold in 1904 and 1908 but Lagat would wipe the floor with them).

2. 2015 Centro. Centro already has two WC medals and he's better now than he was in either of those years.

Yes, I think Centro would beat Ryun. Ryun's prime was 50 YEARS AGO. Ryun was tremendous, but in almost every sport on earth, the best guys from today would beat the best guys from 50 years ago. Ryun's times would improve given modern facilities/spikes, but I don't know if that would be enough.

After that I'm less certain. Probably Ryun over Scott for third, but it depends how much credit you give Ryun for running slower times on slower tracks. And them, I'd say Webb 5th. In his prime, he'd give all of these guys a run for their money with a good race, but he was just not consistent enough. He made two WC finals and was 8th and 9th.

Sydney Maree and 2012 Manzano (in a slower race) are also in the mix.

Marty liquori or Jim spivey

Assuming that this is an all-time championship-type event, I wouln't put Webb in the top 3. He won some US championships but was too inconsistent, if not erratic.

American born

Ryun, Scott, Centro and in no particular order: whomever had the better day would win. You have to consider Manzano as a wild card, on the right day he's proven that he can run with the best in the world. Spivey would be a darkhorse but could podium with this group, as could Liquori, Webb, and Falcon. But as I said, the latter two were great runners in their prime they tended to be unpredictable in championship-type races.

Americans including furrin' born

Add Lagat and Maree. At his best Lagat has been better than any of the above. Maree ran 3:29 for FFS! But a bit like Webb and Falcon was sometimes a hot or cold runner.

Drug free?

Who knows but had to bring it up.

I agree with you. It HAS to be Lagat.Comparing Lagat to Ryun is like comparing Carl Lewis to Jesse Owens in the 100m dash. Do you think Owens would beat Lewis? ZERO CHANCE.Lagat ran 3:26.x at one point in his life. he lost to el G, a guy who ran 3:26 and 3:43. I think Lagat in his prime beats anyone who ever existed aside form El G. SO, take Lagat a few years later when he's a US citizen and still winning world championships and i see no reason why he would lose to someone running in the 1960's who never ran as fast in the first placeRyun was good, but few here really knows because he was good in the mid 60's. He has a big mythology built up around him because of cinder tracks and hand-timed results etc etc. Centro would crush him. you all know that, be honest with yourselves.

Wolf Spritzer wrote:

Assuming that this is an all-time championship-type event, I wouln't put Webb in the top 3. He won some US championships but was too inconsistent, if not erratic.

Everyone keeps talking about consistency.

The question wasn't about winning a series of races.

It was about running one race at their very best.

Could Webb win this race at his very best?

Davey Gravey wrote:

HardLoper wrote:

Jim Ryun.

What is the argument for Ryun beating Lagat? Lots of votes for Ryun, not much explanation.

He was better.

Jim Ryun...3:51.1, on cinders. 'Nuff said. I'd day then Lagat and just because he was so consistent (under 4:00 over 100 times), Steve Scott.

Star wrote:

Wolf Spritzer wrote:

Assuming that this is an all-time championship-type event, I wouln't put Webb in the top 3. He won some US championships but was too inconsistent, if not erratic.

Everyone keeps talking about consistency.

The question wasn't about winning a series of races.

It was about running one race at their very best.

Could Webb win this race at his very best?

I definitely thought about this. But here's my opinion. You take peak Alan Webb, circa 2007, and throw him into a race. Maybe he beats Lagat, like he did at USAs. Or maybe he gets smoked, like he did at Worlds.

Lagat's a proven championship racer. You put peak Lagat in a race like this hypothetical one we're talking about, and I'm confident he produces a good race.

You could argue Webb was cooked by the time Worlds came around in '07 and wasn't the same runner he was earlier in the year. You could make an argument that Webb from April to July of 2007 might be the best American miler ever. But given his inconsistency before and after, I still wouldn't trust that Webb (from April to July) to deliver on a championship stage in the same way I would peak Lagat (and the Lagat Webb beat at USAs that year clearly wasn't close to peaking yet).

Jonathan Gault wrote:

...in almost every sport on earth, the best guys from today would beat the best guys from 50 years ago.

That's the beauty of track and field. A 3:51.1 today is the same as a 3:51.1 in 1960. People get better in other sports because they develops skills better, become more knowledgeable of the sport, etc.

Running is not the same. We've become faster due to training techniques, nutrition, etc. but raw talent is raw talent. There's no denying Ryun was a generation or two ahead of his time.

Someone should bring up Steve Cram! 3:29 and 3:46!

WOW!!!

It HAS to be Lagat!

Centro would CRUSH Ryun

If you set up the race as it is supposed to be, it doesn't HAVE to be anyone.

The odds may favor Lagat, but he has lost a few big races in his time.

Centro would have to at his very best, which doesn't always happen.

Ryun was more consistent at faster times, often running by himelf.

You probably would have 3-4 guys within a second of each other.

OP please clarify

1) is there a pacemaker or is this a jogfest champs

2) do people from legal doping era get their drugs

3) in fairness to people from legal doping era, what kind of track is it

I don't think that you can say that just because today's athletes tend to be better than they were 50 years ago, therefore, the best athletes of today are better than the best 50 years ago. Wilt Chamberlain was a better athlete, by track measurements and factoring in his height and weight, by far than any current or former NBA player. Jim Ryun only ran 3:33/3:51, so it is difficult to just give him the title over Bernard Lagat, when the latter ran 3:27 in 2004 as an American citizen (not publicly declared, so that he could still compete in the Olympics that year--Kenya went on to prevent him from competing in the 2005 World's, just as the first positive EPO test kept him from competing in the 2003 World's), and went on to destroy Bekele in a 12:59, closing in 51, and to win double gold at 1500m/5000m at World's in 2007 with Webb sick and slightly injured. We do not know for sure that Ryun would have run much, much faster at 1500m/mile with a mondo track, pacers, an even pace, say, 2:45 to bell, and drafting. But it is very, very likely, so he has got to be 1a and then Webb, Centro, Scott, Maree. Centro is a better championships' runner than Scott and will rack up better #'s in the next couple years, but currently, Scott's mile is superior even to Centro's converted 1500m, and you know that Scott ran a lot more miles than fast 1500s.

Star wrote:

Wolf Spritzer wrote:

Assuming that this is an all-time championship-type event, I wouln't put Webb in the top 3. He won some US championships but was too inconsistent, if not erratic.

Everyone keeps talking about consistency.

The question wasn't about winning a series of races.

It was about running one race at their very best.

Could Webb win this race at his very best?

Then you are just ranking PRs. Webb was a time trialer. That does not appear to be the intent of the OP. Lagat's 1500 PR is 4 seconds faster than Webb's, 7 faster than Ryun's.

If you are talking the mile PR then indeed it is Webb, Lagat, Scott, and I think Maree. But consider this. Scott and Maree broke 3:50 7 or 8 times each compared to just twice for Webb. They also had more major wins. So as I stated above, I'm assuming a championship type event. Otherwise, go ahead and rank PRs. Not quite the same.

jim ryun

lagat (non us soil born)

joe falcon

steve scott

spivey

centro jr

webb

Lagat - Centro is the matchup

I gotta put Webb at #3, because he is also #10 all-time in the 800. His top end speed is the best the US has ever seen.

Bad Wigins wrote:

OP please clarify

1) is there a pacemaker or is this a jogfest champs

2) do people from legal doping era get their drugs

3) in fairness to people from legal doping era, what kind of track is it

1) no pacemaker. If no one pushes it, it is a jog fest. Everyone does whatever they think will give them the best chance.

2) people get whatever drugs they were getting by with when they ran since there is no way to know what anyone was actually using.

3) modern track.