Reporter: Mary, will you shake hands with Kara Goucher? Mary Cain: No

Yes she provided a handwritten pill bottle but some of the other facts in her story have been called into question. She says Salazar was pushing her to take Cytomel before Boston to loose weight. Salazar says he gave it to her in August at the direction of Dr. Brown. Salazar's response casts significant doubt that he was pushing her to loose more weight before Boston. He provides documentation to support his claim that the Cytomel "incident" was in August. Goucher has provided NO evidence (at least at this point) that supports her recollection that it was before Boston. Therefore, until she provides some evidence the evidence falls towards Salazar's version of the events. You're trying to construe Brown's comment that he doesn't write on bottles to mean that Goucher's version of events is accurate. The main question is was the Cytomel given to Goucher at the direction of a doctor or was Salazar practicing as doctor. I think it's clear he was probably practicing as a pharmacist giving Kara medication that was originally dispensed for Galen. While that's not appropriate, in my mind it's not anything to really get excited about as long as it was at a doctor's direction. So I say who cares if that was Salazar's handwriting? The main question in my mind is was it in August at the direction of Dr. Brown or in March because Salazar wanted her to loose weight? Salazar has provided strong evidence that there was a a Cytomel "incident" in August. Goucher has provided zero evidence that there was on in March other than her statements. Salazar has provided evidence that contradicts Goucher's reason for the March indecent. Therefore, that calls into question whether there was a March incident.

rojo wrote:

reasonable.s wrote:

Would you shake the hand of someone who was trying to ruin the life of your coach andd teammates with hearsay and baseless facts? I'd probably punch her in the face.

What was baseless about Kara's allegation?

She provided a pill box with a handwritten label on with a prescription drug in it that she says is Salazar's hand writing. Salazar's 11,000+ word response didn't say it wasn't his handwriting so I think any logical person would assume it was indeed his, particularly since Dr. Brown says he'd never give an a patient a pill with a handwritten label.

So Kara's allegation appears to anyone with a brain to be far from baseless.

ComeOnRojo wrote:

Salazar has provided evidence that contradicts Goucher's reason for the March indecent.

Please cite this evidence here, if you would be so kind.

A reminder: Salazar saying, "That's not true" is not evidence of anything other than business as usual -- Salazar slinging bullshit about those with the temerity to force him to answer for his many years of bully tactics, lying, and fear-mongering.

Winnie the Pill wrote:

ComeOnRojo wrote:

Salazar has provided evidence that contradicts Goucher's reason for the March indecent.

Please cite this evidence here, if you would be so kind.

A reminder: Salazar saying, "That's not true" is not evidence of anything other than business as usual -- Salazar slinging bullshit about those with the temerity to force him to answer for his many years of bully tactics, lying, and fear-mongering.

It's in the detailed report provided by Salazar.

The premise behind Goucher's story is that Salazar was pushing her to take Cytomel to lose weight. Salazar's response contradicts the primary premise behind her story; that she was being pushed to lose more weight after Colt's birth. Combine that with the fact Salazar has another explanation, supported by evidence, it calls into serious question Goucher's story. All she has is her word, Salazar has documentation supporting his story. Is it possible that there were two incidents involving Cytomel and Salazar? Sure but to me it seems unlikely and Goucher hasn't supplied any evidence to support her version of events.

I'm not saying the Salazar has proven that Goucher's version of the events isn't correct. We have two stories, the handwritten bottle isn't question in my opinion but for me the primary question is the date and circumstances. Salazar's version is documented by contemporaneous evidence. Goucher's isn't.

Yes Kara has provided proof. She's provided the handwritten label.

The doctor said he gave it to her in August. Anything the doctor gave her would have a script on it.

The fact that she got a pill with Salazar's handwriting on it shows it's not fro August or their would be a script on it.

I agree with you. It's not a WADA violation, but it never was.

At the end of the post, you basically agree to Gouchers' allegation. He was a 'practicing pharmacist'. That's what she alleged and you agree. The fact that she was given the drug at another time means nothing.

Salazar is clearly constantly looking for a chemical answer to everything. Again, it never alleged to be a WADA violation.

The only debate in this particular instance is whether it was under Doctor's orders. I clearly think not given their was no script and given what the other 3 people said after this story was published.

People are forgetting the Celebrx story published on June 12.

It amazes me that people just want to attack Goucher. She, Jackie Areson, etc have all said he handed out prescription drugs like they were candy. How are you debating it when she has a handwritten vial?

Kara's allegation was baseless. Just confirming that for those confused.

rojo wrote:

Yes Kara has provided proof. She's provided the handwritten label.

The doctor said he gave it to her in August. Anything the doctor gave her would have a script on it.

The fact that she got a pill with Salazar's handwriting on it shows it's not fro August or their would be a script on it.

I agree with you. It's not a WADA violation, but it never was.

Are you kidding me, rojo?

1. Yes, a handwritten label is definitive proof. Let's lock him up. In the face of an overwhelming lack of evidence, you're still here screaming, "But look, a label! I've got a label!" Proof of nothing.

2. Perhaps the reason no one is giving much credence to Goucher's claims is that she sat in front of a camera and gave one of the most dramatic speeches of all-time: "I mean, I literally loved him. I LOVED HIM! But he put me in this position." Tears and crying and the whole nine yards. And then, even if EVERYTHING she is saying is true, the worst thing that happened was that Salazar gave her pills that her doctor eventually prescribed anyway. Or, depending on timeline, it's possible the doctor had already prescribed it. In any case, none of this amounts to a crying fit. But I suppose that's Kara's style.

I fail to see how the handwritten bottle proves it wasn't in August.

When Dr. Brown told her to begin Cytomel immediately they were in South Korea. Since they can't get the script/prescription filed in South Korea, Salazar gives her some of Galen's Cytomel in a bottle with his handwriting on it until they can get back home and fill the prescription.

What am I missing that proves it wasn't in August? From what I can see all it proves is that she began taking Cytomel before she returned home and filled the prescription.

[quote]rojo wrote:

Yes Kara has provided proof. She's provided the handwritten label.

The doctor said he gave it to her in August. Anything the doctor gave her would have a script on it.

The fact that she got a pill with Salazar's handwriting on it shows it's not fro August or their would be a script on it.

The only debate in this particular instance is whether it was under Doctor's orders. I clearly think not given their was no script and given what the other 3 people said after this story was published.

rojo wrote:

She, Jackie Areson, etc have all said he handed out prescription drugs like they were candy. How are you debating it when she has a handwritten vial?

How does one vial for a drug she may have already been prescribed = handing out prescription drugs like they were candy?

So far, neither side has presented evidence that "proves" its case. Take the Cytomel. Goucher claims Salazar gave her Rupp's Cytomel because he wanted her to lose weight. Salazar says, to the contrary, he bent over backwards to tell her not to worry too much about her weight or set unrealistic targets. As evidence, he presents a bunch of emails to Goucher and others saying exactly that.

At this point, we can't say for sure whether those emails are relevant to Goucher's story. Partly, that's because Goucher's story is vague on when all of this happened. As a result, we don't know if Salazar's emails about weight are even from the time she's talking about. Maybe they came after Goucher had lost all of the weight Salazar pushed her about. Or....

This is the problem with litigating via press release. The two sides are not forced to respond directly to each other. They get to share the evidence they want to share; no court forces them to produce anything. And instead of confronting each other in court, both sides are free spin their yarns, claiming that they are responding when in fact they are not.

Imagine how different things would be if we had all of the emails between Goucher, Salazar and the rest of the NOP staff. Or copies of Goucher's medical records. Or...

Of course, that evidence would still be incomplete and ambiguous, requiring interpretation and interpolation. We'd still have to worry that someone was hiding something important. But we would sure as hell know a lot more than we do now.

SPEAKING OF FACTS: Did Mary Cain actually say she wouldn't shake hands with Goucher?

Why we are debating everything wrote:

SPEAKING OF FACTS: Did Mary Cain actually say she wouldn't shake hands with Goucher?

Can someone post a link or video that shows this.

The hand written label does not seem to be consistent with Alberto's story.

On the other hand, Alberto's emails do not seem to be consistent with Goucher's story.

At this point, there is no way to pick which of these stories to believe. At the very least, some journalist needs to confront both Goucher and Salazar and make each explain the discrepancies between her/his story and the evidence offered on the other side.

Chances are these interviews will not be easy. These are hard questions. Both sides are likely to try to weasel their way out of answering. Cutting through the bullshit will require persistence, tenacity and a willingness to be confrontational.

Sounds like a job for Rojo or Wejo,

Seriously.

Yawn. Wake me up when the Gouchers take a polygraph.

Exactly... wrote:

Why we are debating everything wrote:

SPEAKING OF FACTS: Did Mary Cain actually say she wouldn't shake hands with Goucher?

Can someone post a link or video that shows this.

No, this never happened. Fun to think about, though.

Winnie the Pill wrote:

Please cite this evidence here, if you would be so kind.

A reminder: Salazar saying, "That's not true" is not evidence of anything other than business as usual -- Salazar slinging bullshit about those with the temerity to force him to answer for his many years of bully tactics, lying, and fear-mongering.

I don't see how anyone can read the Gouchers' account and then read the below and not believe Salazar. It really makes one wonder what their real motives are? Did Adam suspect that Kara was too much into Salazar and that they might be having an affair? Was there a real doping program (EPO, etc) going on and the Gouchers don't want to wipe out their careers and are trying to take Salazar down based on half-truths about abuse of TUEs and legal prescriptions? All I know is Salazar has shown their allegations so far to be false.

Alberto Open Letter Part 2: THE KARA AND ADAM GOUCHER ALLEGATIONS

I can read quite well, thanks. Please tell me exactly where in that 12,000-word mess (not even including the "Exhibits") I can find evidence contradicting Goucher's reason for the the March "indecent." This should not be difficult for you, or someone, to do.

Learn to read wrote:

Winnie the Pill wrote:

Please cite this evidence here, if you would be so kind.

A reminder: Salazar saying, "That's not true" is not evidence of anything other than business as usual -- Salazar slinging bullshit about those with the temerity to force him to answer for his many years of bully tactics, lying, and fear-mongering.

It's in the detailed report provided by Salazar.

Fixed post:

I think 2 (by Insert ...) is the way people are seeing it. I wish she was clear that she continued to have Alberto involved in the medical issues thereafter and that she took the same meds at the direction of her doctor in August. That seems beyond dispute. Maybe she has some proof that contradicts the AS emails indicating he was OK with her weight and that he gave her the handwritten label then. Even if she produces all of that, the story is not that dramatic anymore. She went on to get the same meds and involved Alberto in medical decisions several months later. She was an adult, had worked with him for 5 years and was a star runner. She certainly could have taken over her own medical issues.

Also, people do take other people's drugs while traveling because they had been prescribed them in the U.S. but could not get them easily overseas. It happens all the time. So I could see him doing that with a bottle while in Korea.

I agree with you. It's not a WADA violation, but it never was.

Funny how a thread about something that never happened is allowed to stay up.

joecrunner wrote:

Funny how a thread about something that never happened is allowed to stay up.

Yup, just like Seinfeld. A show about nothing and nobody learns anything.