I can't hit the tempo pace prescribed by calculators

Instead of doing a long continuous tempo, break it up into segments with 1:00 or less rest. Instead of doing trying to do 4 miles continuously at 5:45, break it up into 4 mile repeats at that pace with 1:00 rest. As you get fitter, do the segments faster and make them longer until you can run the whole thing together. Also work on steady/moderate running on some of your easy days.

Don't use calculators to determine tempo pace. Problem solved

I have no more credentials than anyone else here, but I have had relatively good results using mostly tempo work in my running life. I don't have my Daniels book with me, but my first question is, "When did you run the 4:33 and how does that vDot compare to a current 5k fitness vDot?" If you ran 4:33 last week and can only a 17-high 5k right now, yes, your endurance is awful. Daniels would recommend using the 5k for several reasons, your inability to do the mile conversion tempo pace supports that.

I also agree with the concept of tempo intervals with short rest. However, I stress how important it is use race fitness to determine tempo fitness, not how you feel. Giving yourself a minute between each mile and running them in 5:45 when you are barely able to run a 5k at that pace does not make it a tempo workout. Let your race fitness dictate your tempo pace and you will improve.

That's a good point. The 4:33 was several months ago, but at the moment I can probably only run a mid to high 17 for 5k.

Curious Lad wrote:

. . . I'm probably in high 17 fitness right now. Clearly my endurance is awful. What should I do to run closer to what the calculators suggest? . . .

Plug "high 17" sorts of numbers into the calculator because that's where you're at. If you're doing Daniels definition of a tempo run then the pace is further de-rated if you're going for more than a nominal 20 minutes.

Makes sense. Part of the reason why I'm asking is because my current mile fitness is probably about 4:38-4:40 at this 5k fitness, and there's a big discrepancy between suggested paces based on my approximate mile and 5k.

This was me*.

Prob solver is the only one who has said anything reasonable. Calculators are silly for determining tempo pace. If you are going in thinking, I need to hit X pace on a tempo run, you have it all wrong. You should let the pace come to you on a tempo run and feel "in the zone," as Malmo says in the thread below.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4440529

Old Man Winter wrote:

Makes sense. Part of the reason why I'm asking is because my current mile fitness is probably about 4:38-4:40 at this 5k fitness, and there's a big discrepancy between suggested paces based on my approximate mile and 5k.

For threshold work you go with the longer distance. Daniels alternately describes T pace as being about your current 1 hour race pace, so something like a 15k race would be the ideal basis to get the calculator to best correlate with the intended effort level.

Something is really wrong if you can run a mile in 4:38 right now but can only manage high 17s for a 5K (5:40ish pace)

Are you an 800/mile runner primarily?

If your goal is to run a faster 5K, you're going to have to increase your mileage and do more steady-state running.

Midpack wrote:

Prob solver is the only one who has said anything reasonable. Calculators are silly for determining tempo pace. If you are going in thinking, I need to hit X pace on a tempo run, you have it all wrong. You should let the pace come to you on a tempo run and feel "in the zone," as Malmo says in the thread below.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4440529

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Don't get stuck on calculators. Don't even check your pace during the run.

In a few weeks, as you adapt, you'll probably find you're running the recommended pace naturally.

I was going to post "tempo runs should feel like heaven" but I clicked on that thread link first. Lo and behold, my first post on that thread said...

That's because of aerobic drift. MOST high schoolers cannot and should not try to hit their theoretical AT or LT predicted by a calculator using their 1600m or even 3200m time. Young or inexperienced runners are underdeveloped aerobically and rely more on anaerobic fitness to run a given time. Which is fine! It just means you can't run the predicted LT, you have to back it off a bit. If you want an even better prediction of your real threshold, go run a road 10k and plug that into the calculator or chart.

This is also why most high schoolers can't match the "equivalent" 3200m to their 1600m - because of low aerobic fitness, a line connecting their performances on a performance chart "drifts" towards slower times. Hence the name.

Yeah I'm primarily an 800 runner (1:56).

Curious Lad wrote:

Yeah I'm primarily an 800 runner (1:56).

There's the reason. Daniels probably assumes that you are a balanced runner (you are not). Plug in your CURRENT 5k ability and start your tempo pace there.

If your trying to run 5:45 pace but your guessing your in low to mid 17 shape your basically running 5k pace for a tempo. This is obviously to fast. Doing 4 miles at 6 minute pace is about right in this situation and as the season progresses you should be getting a little faster at it.

Running is a curious thing. In my 30s If I was in 4:33 mile pace, I'd expect to be racing 10 miles in 5:20 pace. I ran a 4:32 mile (granted in wind) when I was 38 a few weeks before a hot weather track 10k in 31:58 and considered them equivalent performances.

citius5000 wrote:

If your trying to run 5:45 pace but your guessing your in low to mid 17 shape your basically running 5k pace for a tempo. This is obviously to fast. Doing 4 miles at 6 minute pace is about right in this situation and as the season progresses you should be getting a little faster at it.

Used "your" four times incorrectly in a single sentence. You sir, win some sort of award for that. Bonus point for using "to" incorrectly in the following sentence.

CL-

You can use those calculator times to your discretion, but if you're just starting, dont expect to run that right away. Tough workouts take getting used to so be careful pushing harder than you should to hit those times