Are full back squats, deadlifts and olympic lifts safe for over 40yo?

Also, added bulk typically requires added calories.

4-6 rep sets done twice a week with a handful of exercises will not add bulk if you are running an hour a day.

Alan

runningart, coach and others,

what do you think is a good back squat goal to build-up to before moving onto plyos? Correct me if I'm wrong but plyometrics and other power exercises like the clean are usually done after sufficient strength is achieved? I read somewhere that 1.5 X bodyweight for the full squat before doing full cleans or plyometrics. But then again, this is for someone much younger and not running a good amount of mileage.

Also, I'm finding it hard to make any strength gains in the back squat but I've only been at it for several months. I'm not sure if it's the running, the routine (strictly low reps high weight, twice a week) or if I should look into supplements .

first my GO-TO sources are Mike Robertson, Mike Boyle, Eric Cressey, BJ Gaddour, and a background in NASM, please look them up and learn what Alan and others much smarter than me have learned. I've moved away from back squats. I prefer goblet squats and body weight squats and variations. As far as plyometrics is concerned, studies seem to suggest that older people start to lose power. Thus the need for explosive training. Start with low level jumps and med ball throws. My HS kids start off with very low level jumps and body weight exercises and progress from there. I'm at a point in my life where I just use bands and I do body weight exercises, I like the book Your Body is Your Barbell by BJ Gaddour and I also do box jumps and basic skipping and running drills my students.

Don't worry about having sufficient strength to do plyos, do low level plyos, and perhaps try other squat variations if you haven't already.

I don't buy the 1.5 bw squat requirement prior to plyos. Jumping up and down is a form of plyos. Watch kids play. They do sprints and plyos all day long.

I'm not a fan of the powerclean for runners or other non-power focused sports. It's looked at like the holy grail but is more a technique exercise than anything else. Do high pulls or loaded jump squats (30-50% of 1rm).

Hit a plateau. ..change up the rep scheme or work on partIals or swItch to front squats for a whIle. What has your progression been to this point?

Alan

long day wrote:

I'm finding it hard to make any strength gains in the back squat but I've only been at it for several months. I'm not sure if it's the running, the routine (strictly low reps high weight, twice a week) or if I should look into supplements .

I did 386 pounds in the full squat, 220 snatch and 280 clean & jerk, weighing 146 pounds, plus 335 dead lift the only time that I tried it.

For improvement of strength, you either need to do single lifts, near maximum, or else utilize slow & light weight reps over time, both methods intending to improve the tension capabilities of the muscles, while keeping the body light weight for running. It is of no use lifting massive weights and being too heavy to run. After weightlifting, I changed back to running, could sprint 440 well but it took me 3 years to run reasonable times in the distances.

It is easy to improve doing singles, but not doing reps, because they are counter productive, and to not build maximum tension in the muscles. Rather they bulk up the muscles and add weight to the body, making it slow and sluggish for running.

Percy Cerutty had all his runners including Herb Elliott do single repetitions as is done in competitive weight lifting, not doing repetitions at all for anything other than situps.

coach, thanks..ill be sure to check out those guys out you mentioned.

alan - Ive only been doing squats for several months now consistently and I'm really only able to do my bodyweight about 4-5 reps. But then again, my legs usually haven't really recovered from a running workout either that morning or the previous day. Do you think alternating between high and low rep days make sense? For instance, one day do 3-5 reps with 3-5 minute recoveries between sets and another day do 10-12 reps w/ slightly less recovery?

Many years ago in another dimension (on and off, '86 till about '91 or so) when gyms played good music and the world seemed a little better, I went 195 on the bench and 295 in the full squat, weighing in at 138 poinds. Deads were not my thing, and I do not rememeber my max in that exercise. In that time, I never had even the slightest of injuries. I was mostly bodybuilding, and it was so good for the body (in comparison to running). However, I find the whole gym scene quite boring now.

outsiderunner wrote:

Many years ago ... weighing in at 138 poinds.... I was mostly bodybuilding, and it was so good for the body (in comparison to running). However, I find the whole gym scene quite boring now.

I'm sorry to say, you weren't bodybuliding, unless you were 4'6" tall.

Curious on the thoughts of this crew on half squats versus full squats for runners. I've heard arguments both ways: 1) that you need to go full squat to get full glute engagement, and 2) that running is doesn't involve full end range motion, so no need to do it when squatting - half squats are fine.

FWIW, I'm female so not really concerned about bulking or gaining weight from lifting - I guess that's one advantage girls have. We can lift heavy without worrying about gaining weight that compromises our running :)

My opinion is that heavy squats don't help running at all, and are counter productive.

Also it is not true that females can't add bulk; just look at female body builders.

Any kind of bulking is not good for runners.

J.R. wrote:

It is easy to improve doing singles, but not doing reps, because they are counter productive, and to not build maximum tension in the muscles. Rather they bulk up the muscles and add weight to the body, making it slow and sluggish for running.

Percy Cerutty had all his runners including Herb Elliott do single repetitions as is done in competitive weight lifting, not doing repetitions at all for anything other than situps.

Name dropping as a justification for doing something isn't a good reason for doing something.

I don't agree with the single rep concept, but I could be wrong. It also depends on the person.

Personally, I do low, slow reps with decent burn, but never to failure. If I pay attention to form, I find myself "cheating" through the rep as the burn builds, so that's when I stop.

So far, I don't get bulk and I get the power that translates to speed a little later. Maybe it's just a variation on your single rep concept? I'm open to some feedback here as I do not have all the answers.

runDirtyrun wrote:

Name dropping as a justification for doing something isn't a good reason for doing something.

I would use a different nickname, but mine adds credibility to my post.

I don't agree with the single rep concept, but I could be wrong. It also depends on the person.

What don't you agree with, about what, and what "it" are you talking about.

Personally, I do low, slow reps with decent burn, but never to failure. If I pay attention to form, I find myself "cheating" through the rep as the burn builds, so that's when I stop.

I don't get any burn with slow reps. Maybe you do them faster than I do.

I focus on doing each repetition perfectly, and don't come close to failure.

There is a tetany feeling that starts to develop, and then I stop.

Biggest problem doing only single reps is that if you are truly maxing out a single every workout that's quite a bit of cns overload and you will reach a point where you won't improve due to cns fatigue.

Do both full squats for overall strength development and half or quarter squats for speed in specific strength development.

If not the squat for runners then what? Lunge?...If you are going to lunge then you should squat to develop the lunge.

Peroidize your lifting like any other sort of training.

Looking just at the squat (i will assume the squat is part of a balanced strength training program) lets talk about progression. The squat, the lunge, and their variations should be the foundation of your strength program. Start with bodyweight movements. Do the full range squat. Go for reps and speed. Do timed sets and go for more reps per minute. Do numbered reps and sets and go for a higher number. Do this 2-3 times a week for 4-6 weeks (assuming you are also doing other bodyweight exercises).

Now move into weight training. Do 5 sets of 5 increasing the weight each set such as 95, 115, 135, 155, 185. You will learn by trial and error but start light and add weight until you reach failure at 4-6 reps. On those light sets lift more explosively but not jerking or jumping...down controlled, explode up but in control. Lift 1-2 x week.

After 4-6 weeks switch to 4-6 sets of 2-3 reps. Same protocol but a higher weight. Do this for 2-4 weeks.

Now switch to more dynamic and specific strength. If two days a week do explosive/specific lifts one day then plyos second day. If one day a week do combined but with less volume.

Explosive:

Quarter to half squat (135-90 degree knee) perferably to a box so you know the depth. Do 50% of the final weight you used last phase. Go for speed. 5-10 reps. 2-3 sets.

Specific:

Bulgarian lunges or walking lunges with dumbells. 10 reps each leg or walk for distance.

Plyos: basIc flat frog jumps and splIt jumps progress to box jumps for height and split box jumps (3 sets of 3). Also broad jumps and split jumps for distance. Choose two of these. Progress. Change exercise. Progress.

Trouble with squat....

Do heavy squats from pins. If you have a full cage squat rack set the pins at 135 degree knee angle...or use the smith if you really really have to. You should be able to do much heavier weight.. again 5 x 5. Also drop the weight in half from your orIgInal 5 rep weIght and do speed squats from a box. Set a box at your full depth (12in plyo box?). Squat down. Sit on box. Explode up. Weak from bottom use low box squats light weight. Get out of hole then stuck use heavy heavy squats from a high pin.

Plyos help your running. Specific and explosive strength helps your plyos. General strength helps your specific and explosive strength. I can't stand picking up a running book and seeing half squat cable pulls with an opposIng knee raise and some PhD calls that "functional" meanwhile those "athletes" can't do a full range of motion squat without getting up on their toes, they can't squat their body weight, and wonder why they have femoral neck stress fractures.

One of these days I will write a free book and offer it here...3 people will use it, 100 trolls will disect and ridicule it, 20 personal traIners/strength coaches wIll tell me It's not functIonal enough, 10 PhD's (who have never actually traIned anyone)will question the science, and some dude from TNFmedia will use it as a beer coaster. :-)

Alan

runningart2004 wrote:

Biggest problem doing only single reps is that if you are truly maxing out a single every workout that's quite a bit of cns overload and you will reach a point where you won't improve due to cns fatigue.

This is total bullocks and shows you have no clue what you're babbling about.

darkwave wrote:

Curious on the thoughts of this crew on half squats versus full squats for runners. I've heard arguments both ways: 1) that you need to go full squat to get full glute engagement, and 2) that running is doesn't involve full end range motion, so no need to do it when squatting - half squats are fine.

FWIW, I'm female so not really concerned about bulking or gaining weight from lifting - I guess that's one advantage girls have. We can lift heavy without worrying about gaining weight that compromises our running :)

Competitive male runners shouldn't worry about gaining bulk no matter how they lift. The genetic advantage that makes them competitive runners also really makes it difficult to gain muscle...they would be what the weight lifting world calls "hard gainers". Add to that the hour-plus of aerobic activity done every single day and if you still gain mass you need to switch sports.

Its extremely frustrating trying to convince 20 yr old 140lb runners and 40 yr old 200lb housewives that weights alone will not bulk you up. Surreal similarity.

Alan

J.R. wrote:

runningart2004 wrote:

Biggest problem doing only single reps is that if you are truly maxing out a single every workout that's quite a bit of cns overload and you will reach a point where you won't improve due to cns fatigue.

This is total bullocks and shows you have no clue what you're babbling about.

Bollocks englishman. Show me any world class powerlifter in any weight class that only does singles?

Anyone who only does maxed out singles every workout and who is progressing naturally is not normal.

I understand if you're doing submax singles and not going to failure but my assumption is that you are talking about max effort.

No competitive runner is going to gain mass doing 5 rep sets. No newb lifter is going to be able to attempt a true single without failing miserably in execution before the muscles actually fail.

Just doing singles is pretty much the opposite of what every strength professional would advise....sounds like you've been reading Power Factor.

Alan

Alan

J.R. wrote:

My opinion is that heavy squats don't help running at all, and are counter productive.

Also it is not true that females can't add bulk; just look at female body builders.

Any kind of bulking is not good for runners.

Female body builders are not a great example seeing 99% of them are on steroids (bodybuilders, not figure).

Alan

alan, thanks for the info. It's been really helpful. What's do you think the best bang for buck scenario for coaching olympic lifting? A few session with an olympic lifting trainer or enroll in a local crossfit gym that has group olympic lifting classes for newbies? I tried reading up on the squat from several books but there too much info to digest and take to the gym at the same time.

long day wrote:

alan, thanks for the info. It's been really helpful. What's do you think the best bang for buck scenario for coaching olympic lifting? A few session with an olympic lifting trainer or enroll in a local crossfit gym that has group olympic lifting classes for newbies? I tried reading up on the squat from several books but there too much info to digest and take to the gym at the same time.

You're asking yourself for advice.