Ole Classic - Gray 1'42.80 Solo from '92 Trials

Bad Wigins wrote:you can ignore all the other gobbledygook in your reply, it is all wrong because the above one statement is dead freaking wrong, and anyone who has at least a few 800's under their belt knows it

eh???

you are the one talking utter nonsense

aman splits 23.6 & runs 1'43.3

he splits 24.1 in brussels & runs 1'42.3pb !!!

anyone with a clue about 800 running woud realise anything 23+ is a nonsense split

as for my personal 800s, where are your 1'40s ???

Keep the 2nd and 3rd 200's within 1/2 second if possible, yes. But don't mislead gullible distance runners with this even-first-lap bullshit

where do you come up with this nonsense ???

can you even read or think ???

i have never ever said "even 1st lap" !!!

i have said every 200 shoud be 1/2s slower than previous for elites

learn to read

I am beginning to wonder if you have ever even run an 800

certainly never 1'40/1'41/1'42

have you ???

i've never played augusta either but i have a damn good idea how an elite woud want to play each shot tee to green

Ventolin or Deanouk have you got the split at 200m for Coe's WR over 800m?

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Ventolin or Deanouk have you got the split at 200m for Coe's WR over 800m?

The so called "official 200 splits" for Coe are wrong. I have several good quality versions of the race on DVD, and while the first 2 splits are pretty spot on, the 3rd and 4th 200s are not correct.

It's always claimed his 200 splits were 24.4, 25.3 (49.7), 25.3 (1:15.0) 26.7.

These were based, I believe, on the times given out by Coleman on his commentary, probably fed to him by the BBC stats man. Close scrutiny of the race, with focus on any specific spot around the 200 mark will show that he covered the 400m stretch from 200 to 600 in either 51.0 or 51.1. It is impossible that he split 24.4 (before it was even given as 24.6) and 1:15.0, which would result in a 50.6 ( or 50.4) 400m stretch.

The 24.4 and 49.7 splits stand up when using a stop watch, but the 600 mark was not as fast as 1:15.0. It was either 1:15.4 or 1:15.5, meaning his last 200 was more like 26.2, not 26.7.

So his 200s were much closer to 24.4, 25.3, 25.7, 26.2 (hand time given as 1:41.6)

As he ran almost 2m extra on the 3rd bend to pass Konchellah, the 3rd 200 was potentially worth 25.5.

There was 0.9 between his first and second 200.

I agree totally with Bad Wigins on this one. Best to go pretty flat out for 1st 150 and then try and float to bell. There on in its just a case of trying to maintain the pace for as long as possible.

I'd say 23 high - 24 flat is about optimal followed by a 25 low/ mid.

Might be worth reading over this article by Kevin Prendergast (has coach a 1:45.03 and a number of other 1:47-48 guys).

Vent you might appreciated it from it's mathematically perspective.

In terms of the first 200, I like to thin of it as a modified 1st 200 of a 400m, where by you get out pretty hard in the first 50m and then relax in to the right pace - meaninf that you are running at 25/26 effort after that first 50m, so you'd probably hit 200 in 24.5-25 and then 400m in 50.5-51 (for a 1:44 final time) - that's what I work off anyway

JR

Deanouk wrote:As he ran almost 2m extra on the 3rd bend to pass Konchellah, the 3rd 200 was potentially worth 25.5

no

if he'd run whole of bend on lane 2 line he wouda run 2.82m extra

he never reached lane 2 line & only swerved out significantly ~ mid-curve to pass billy & then made his way back to inner lane

if he'd run whole of mid-bend to end of bend on lane 2 line, he wouda run 1.41m extra

this was never the case

he never reached lane 2 line & cut back to curb smoothly after passing billy

he ran no more than

1m

extra on the bend, worth at 25s speed no more than 0.125s & that is being generous

I'd say 23 high - 24 flat is about optimal followed by a 25 low/ mid.

eh ???

coe ran his virtually perfect race apart from swerve around billy & split 24.4

if coe had gone out in < 24 he wouda faded badly to 1'42++ even on that mickey mouse track

Thanks for the info. Interesting that Coe managed to hand on to run a second faster overall than Gray despite a similar fast start but then he was a superior athlete over 800m despite running the 1500m as well

ukathleticscoach wrote:Thanks for the info. Interesting that Coe managed to hand on to run a second faster overall than Gray despite a similar fast start but then he was a superior athlete over 800m despite running the 1500m as well

eh???

there is big difference between 24.1 & 24.4

even more difference when Gray ran his race unpaced with no drafting

coe never broke 1'44 let alone 1'43 in an unpaced/undrafted effort

Coe does have two Olympic medals at 800m and broke the 800m world record twice, despite it being his second best event.

When are you going to get it through your thick head Ventolin, track is about completion, not splits and formulas.

ventolin^3 wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:Thanks for the info. Interesting that Coe managed to hand on to run a second faster overall than Gray despite a similar fast start but then he was a superior athlete over 800m despite running the 1500m as well

eh???

there is big difference between 24.1 & 24.4

=======================================

Really! 0.3

===================================================

even more difference when Gray ran his race unpaced with no drafting

coe never broke 1'44 let alone 1'43 in an unpaced/undrafted effort

With the kick he had why set the pace and run like an idiot, he learnt that at the start of his career which is why he had 2 Olympic Silvers and 2 Golds compared to Gray's one Bronze

Coe is the only ever sub 1:42 and 3:30 runner and had a brilliant record at the Olympics, why do you always try to undermine his performances?

Tr@re.com wrote:and broke the 800m world record twice, despite it being his second best event

nonsense

anyone with a clue about coe knows he was always a 800m guy foremost

he is still high up in 800 lists but joint 23rd on 1500 list

When are you going to get it through your thick head Ventolin, track is about completion, not splits and formulas

i assume this nonsense means elite athletes are not interested 1 iota in knowing what their best possible clocking couda been in ideal conditions/pacing/drafting/rested/etc ???

ukathleticscoach wrote:Really! 0.3

obviously again little clue

0.3s is a big difference in 200m at these elite levels

With the kick he had why set the pace and run like an idiot, he learnt that at the start of his career which is why he had 2 Olympic Silvers and 2 Golds compared to Gray's one Bronze

because the public wanted to see impressive runs

i waited with bated breathe for an impressive back up 800 in '81after firenze

he had 8 goes & nothing better than 1'45 in a 800 only

gross disappointment

Coe is the only ever sub 1:42 and 3:30 runner and had a brilliant record at the Olympics, why do you always try to undermine his performances?

an impressive stat

however, misleading because many great 1500 guys never chased an 800 time or if they did occasionally run a 800, chased the win rather than the clock as asbel did when thumping nijel last year

i'd bet big $ noah couda dipped into 1'41s if he'd run a 800 instead of a 1k in rieti, but as he deemed kip's 800wr out of reach, chose the 1k instead

bernie with his speed-orientated 1500 wouda been right there with him

learn not to look just at lists but intrinsic merits of elites, although i'm clearly wasting my time on you with this

The public were always interested in Coe but the battle moved to 1500m/mile

So Coe who held the WR should keep chasing times but your guys should not!

'Bernie speed based 1500m runner' - nonsense. He's a 1500m/.5,000m runner everyone knows that but you

Perhaps the IAAF should issue some new lists based on your nonsense

ventolin^3 wrote:

even more difference when Gray ran his race unpaced with no drafting

THAT I can agree too. The '92 Trials was an unpaced race with no drafting help at anytime by the eventual winner. It wasn't solo or a time trial.

BTW Vent^3- Thanks for the video link in your first post, first time I had seen it. I was in the stadium and was focused on Everett and Parilla and failed to realize just how far the margin of victory for Gray was.

again clueless

the "battle" moved to 1500/mile in separate races as both coe/ovett failed to face each other in a euro circuit race from '79 & no clash on circuit in '80 or '81 either

utter nonsense

i said he was a 800 guy & i said, i amongst many wanted to see another fast 800 from him in '81

i said 1500 guys of '90s/early '00s didn't run any serious 800s in peak shape

i said contemporary guy like asbel was more intent in beating nijel than chasing clock

in his race where he thumped nijel in 1'43.3, he eased off at finish, costing coupla tenths

he also ran ~ 6m wide on bends

a route-1 flat-out time of ~ 1'42.3

an impressive clocking from a guy who doesn't go out fast at all in 1st 200/400, handicapping his potential time

again you show you haven't any clue at all about these guys

bernie had little over-endurance ability of note at/near his 1500 peak around the millennium

he ran 7'33 which he described as "hardest race of his life"

in contrast, hicham ran 7'23

therefore, for anyone with a clue, bernie wasn't running 3'26 off some prodigious endurance like hicham, but must be doing it more of far superior speed to hicham

you really know nothing

utterly clueless

if you think iaaf lists are all your neurone can handle, why bother posting on a forum when a primary aim is to assess intrinsic merits of athletes ???

No, you're the clueless one.

Lagat was never speed orientated. Any miler who can't crack 1:46 in an 800, despite running in many fast paced races on the circuit, is not a speed merchant. Lagat was like Ngeny, no great shakes up to 800 but somehow blessed with superhuman endurance once they got to 1000 and beyond. In the late 90's the vast majority of milers suddenly became 1500/ 5000 types with hitherto unprecedented endurance, a phenomenon which seemed to subside as a trend towards the end of the 2000's.

The ability to run the last 800 within a second or two of their 800 potential in a 1500 is a good indication of EPO use, something which you fail to ever take into consideration.

You make the stupid mistake of taking someone's 1500 and 2000 Pb and putting into your calculator to get a fast 800 time, which does not fit in with their actual 800 ability.

Correct. Lagat ran plenty of 5000m and cross country races at WSU. He was all American in cross country and national collegiate champion in 5000m outdoors and 3000 indoors. He never won the 1500m national title though.

more nonsense posted

a 7'33 in a hard race for him best circa millennium shows no great endurance when hicham had 7'23

if not endurance, how on earth did bernie run 3'26+ ???

utter nonsense

he didn't even run a 800 in his peak 1500 year of '01 !!!

in '04 in his 3'27+ year, he ran a 1'46.9 in april when i doubt he had done any speedwork at all but just an 800 off heavy mileage

how many times do you have to be told that he ran 1'46+ in last 800 of athens, a last 800 which was for all intents/purposes a quickening last 800 ???!!!

you don't run 3'26+ off then ~ 7'33 endurance

you run 3'26+ because of some incredible 800 speed

see athens for umpteenth time

utter nonsense

noah split 1'44.6 off suicidal 49.8+ with something like ~ 6m extra on 1st bend

noah had no great endurance at 4'50pb

utter nonsense

according to you, for a 999m race they are rubbish, but if that race is 1000m, they become "superhuman" ???

complete rubbish

utter nonsense

bernie's 7'33 doesn't compare to 3'26+ nor does noah's 4'50 with 3'43+

those over-distance times are embarassing

eh ???

there wasn't a 3'27 performance between '04 & '13

so where are the superfast 1500s in those 9 years ???

utter nonsense

noah already split 1'44.6 off a suicidal 49.8+ with something like 6m extra on 1st bend with fatigue off a 3'29.1 win in his legs from 44 hours before

what on earth do you think he couda run for a 800 in rieti in his "perfect" race given a good few days rest ???

you are clueless if you think i don't take "medical" considerations into account

there weren't any

utter nonsense

that calculator works with good input & putting in nonsense 4'50 or 7'33 is nonsense input

i estimate noah's line of fit in a fully rested rieti effort as very similar to bernie of '01 as both :

~ 46.25 / 1'41.5 ->

2'10.50

3'25.62

3'42.44

the 800/1k i wouda expected if they ran a few "proper" 800s on circuit & got "perfect" 800 race in peak 1500 or mile shape, but this is off only 1500 training

off not enough speed training & too much endurance training for a 800/1k

the 1500/mile times were beyond them as those distances were beyond there ideal race distance & they didn't "last" to 1500 or mile

what you can never seem to comprehend, is that even though noah ran 3'43.4, the mile was somewhat far beyond his ideal racing distance, similar to a more obvious example of kaki running an impressive 3'31+ when everyone knew it was far beyond his ideal race distance

kaki at his 800 peak wouda been looking at 3'28/3'29 if his "distance" extended "perfectly" to 1500 of his "pure" 800 training, but 3'31+ was still impressive

what you seem incapable of comprehending with your sole neurone is that noah/bernie were a similar example to kaki, but less exaggerated in 1500/mile deficiency

noah/bernie's best distance was something like 800/1k, but the blue riband event was 1500 & that is what they concentrated on although not best event

learn

Wsuguy wrote:Correct. Lagat ran plenty of 5000m and cross country races at WSU. He was all American in cross country and national collegiate champion in 5000m outdoors and 3000 indoors. He never won the 1500m national title though

you did read the quote circa millennium+ of his 7'33pb

the article is long gone

i saw race on satellite

it was jog to 900 out & bernie was already long gone at 7'30++ pace for him at bell

the doped saidi-thief blasted the last 800

"Saidi-Sief, as his habit, began the long sprint for home with about 900 metres to go, chased hard by Mohamed Mourhit, Brahim Lahlafi and Daniel Komen, and completed the last 800m in 1:55 with a last lap of approximately 56 seconds"

what on earth was bernie doing with 7'33.5 with 3'26+ next year & 3'28+ that year ???

LOL.

You're like a stuck record. You've been repeating that nonsense for years and it still convinces no one with any sense.

Lagat was never capable of sub 47 for 400, neither was Ngeny.

You've been told by numerous people that Ngeny never run 6m extra in Rieti. Your biased is embarrassing. Coe ran further extra distance wide in his 800WR than Ngeny did in Rieti, yet you claim he only ran 1m extra while Ngeny ran 6m extra. Utter nonsense.

Only in your warped world is a 4:50 2k and a 7:33 3k indicative of "embarrassing " over distance endurance. These are world class times, certainly a darn sight more impressive than 1:46 for 800m.

You cannot grasp the fact that 4:43 and 7:20 are not realistic times.

Lagat had form in over distance racing. He has a poor 1:46 Pb at 800 and no PB at all over 400. As I've said before, running a 1:46.9 last 800 in a 1500 for someone who couldn't break 1:46 in an individual race is a sign of phenomenal endurance and has little to do with 400 speed.