Letsrun : Kindly Ask Benie for Interview on his 40th Birthday On These...

whyallthedoubt wrote:

He's powerless without everybody getting so butthurt. I personally find Ventolin incredibly entertaining. I know he comes off bad but if you can't handle some random guy calling you a moron on a forum that's your problem is it not?

oh dear god, please tell me you're not the 'BUTTHURT!" "LIBTARD!" guy? if so, that would explain why you like ventolin. If not, carry on.

Again, there is no way to get this guy to understand, because he simply cannot read. Now, let's look at Brussels 2001: El G won in 3:26.12 over Lagat in 3:26.34. The pacer went out in 53.5 with El G in 3rd and Lagat in 4th then or soon after. So El G and Lagat went through in low 54 probably. The pacer at 800 went through in 1:50. The next 300m slowed to 2:32 (56 last 400m). The last 800m of the race would have taken El G and Lagat just under 1:50, as the leader at 700m was 1:36. El G was already trying to get past the second pacer (trying to block him and continue to 1200m to get his money) before 1100m. Lagat was behind El G the entire race. In the last 300m, Lagat is close behind El G, getting as much drafting as possible, but possibly too much, as he was quite close to his heels. I watched a few times and did not see any heel strike, but it is possible that it occurs around 3:02 as a slight gap appears then. Lagat moves wide to try to pass on the last straightaway and can never make up ground on El G. He simply did not have the speed to pass him on that day, despite getting the drafting advantage the entire 1500m. I have no doubt in my mind, first, that El G was stronger on that day and every other day but maybe one, that Lagat, together with Ngeny, was the only other person in history who could stay with El G in his long prime and possibly even outkick him in a fast race if he drafted the entire way behind him until the last straightaway, and that Lagat could have run much faster for 800m than he actually did. But the fact is that despite many chances, he never ran close even to 1:44.

By "many chances" you mean one 800 a year. That adds up to a lot, but like I said its very easy to underperform doing that, just like it would be running one 1500 or 5000 a year.

What if every 1:46 he ran had been a 1:47? It wouldn't really change anything about what we think about his actual ability would it, because 1:47/3:26 simply doesn't make sense. 1:46/3:26 (and a 1:46 finish in a 1500) makes similarly little sense, and yet you're willing to use the 1:46 clockings as in some way representative of his true ability which you wouldn't if they had been 1:47-48s.

And I get how inflammatory Ventolin is, but like I said, literally the only power he has is reactions from people like you, who can't handle someone calling them a moron on an internet forum...

ventolin^3 wrote:

no he didn't wrote:

ventolin^3 wrote:

brussels '01 he caught bernie's foot on last bend killing his speed

Complete bs

utter drivel

again you fail to watch

at 3'04 into race, bernie accelerates & attempts to pass but his lead foot/hicham's back foot clash, killing bernie's momentum & at those exalted speeds, bernie lost his chance to overtake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIibwV40BBg

Nothing there. Absolutely nothing. Nada. Zilch. Just the same void that's inside your head.

If Lagat had been stronger than El G he could have overtaken him anytime later in the race.

Idiot.

no he didn't wrote:

ventolin^3 wrote:

utter drivel

again you fail to watch

at 3'04 into race, bernie accelerates & attempts to pass but his lead foot/hicham's back foot clash, killing bernie's momentum & at those exalted speeds, bernie lost his chance to overtake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIibwV40BBg

Nothing there. Absolutely nothing. Nada. Zilch. Just the same void that's inside your head.

If Lagat had been stronger than El G he could have overtaken him anytime later in the race.

Idiot.

Can't you see? Benie is almost falling after 3:04. Ventie has observed this clearly while looking the meet via satellit, so it's a fact.

[quote]Whyallthedoubt wrote:

When you run one 800 a year, it's very easy to underperform.

Underperforming is stretching it for a 1:44 runner running 1:46 several times.

Why would a 1:41/2 guy not run more 800's especially when he keeps getting beat at 1500m

There is no way 1:41/2 guy is going to never better 1:46 its half the length of the straight!

People keep harking back to that 1:46 last 800m in a slow race. The 3 runners who managed that never ran 1:41/2. The lack of ability to do that is why they concentrated on 1500's

I went to a seminar with Legat quite a few years ago and I asked him why he didn't race over 800. He replied that In order to race well over 1500 he didn't need to do so. He said he didn't see why he should compete at 800 below the level of what he could do if he trained for it . He felt that by doing that he would need to do the quality work which exposed him more to injury. Rather than do intervals 400s in the lower 50s he said he needed to be able to cruise at 56 pace. The question of what he might have done for 400 or 800 therefore remains hypothetical .

Sour Grapes wrote:

I went to a seminar with Legat quite a few years ago and I asked him why he didn't race over 800. He replied that In order to race well over 1500 he didn't need to do so. He said he didn't see why he should compete at 800 below the level of what he could do if he trained for it . He felt that by doing that he would need to do the quality work which exposed him more to injury. Rather than do intervals 400s in the lower 50s he said he needed to be able to cruise at 56 pace. The question of what he might have done for 400 or 800 therefore remains hypothetical .

This post is not discusssing what Lagat could have done if he'd trained specifically for 800m but what his potential was if he'd run the right race. For me 2 weeks after running 3:26 would have been a good time but there you go

He has answered the question himself in the seminar:

'he didn't see why he should compete at 800 below the level of what he could do if he trained for it'

I don't think anyone would be disappointed with a 1:41/2 clocking. For 1:41 to be correct as one of Ventolins lines of imagination he would surely, if trained specifically have rivalled Ryun's 1:39!

Again - pointless speculation. If he thought he was capable of running 1-41/42 he may have switched to 800 to avoid El G. This is like coming from the other direction and saying David Rudisha because of his 800 speed could run 3-28 for 1500. The 800 and 1500 require different energy systems. Ryans 1-39 ?? Whats that all about ?

to do a 50+ lap anywhere in a race shows you have damn good speed

very few have done it in a 5 or 10k, in fact, i believe only bernie, mo & chebbii

bernie being a 1500 guy at his peak, coud be expected to go thru an 800 in 50+ & hang onto a 2nd lap of 52+ or better

that's what 3'26 endurance can do for you on the 2nd lap

because 1500 is gold-riband event & he was obsessed in beating hicham

trying 800s & running v kip offered little theoretical respite, albeit bernie didn't realise kip was finished after '97 apart from 1 fairly good season post-millennium

fool

he wasn't interested in 800 except for speedwork to mimic last 2 laps of a slow 1500 as in majors

he never ran a serious 800 in '01 or '04, his peak 1500 years

utter drivel

bernie has never commented on his 800 ability at 1500 peak

learn to read

there is no 800 listed for '01 when he ran 3'26+

for '04 he has an early season 1'46.9, so early season that i doubt he had done 1 oz of speedwork for it - it was run mid-april!

utter drivel

he didn't run a 800 in '01 & his 3'26 was in brussels which is last major diamond/golden league meet of year with only rieti & milan of known euro meets run after

hear you go wrote:There was only what was. There is only what there is. There will be only what will be

then why do you bother posting on a bb ???

if all you are interested in is what was/is, then you offer absolutely nothing to a bb & i suggest you just spend your life just looking at these with no further worthless contribution here :

What's a bb, Ventster?

err...

hicham was drafted whole race minus last 400m

so the difference in drafting between the 2 was 400m

that is very likely

however, it does not mean bernie coudn't have won that day

i do see evidence of a foot-strike at ~ 3'02/3'03 which causes a narrowing gap to widen

another problem was that bernie was trying to kick on the bend which is worst place to do so as you have to run wide & extra distance to pass leader

one further problem is that brussels has shortest straights of any major track

it is 125/75 v standard 116/84

bernie had nearly 10m less real-estate in which to overtake on straight

he shoud never have made his move on the bend

either on back-stretch or home stretch, but like i said, nearly 10m less straight than usual tracks

if bernie had run a better tactical race, he couda won but that does not mean he was an intrinsically faster 1500 guy than hicham

& hicham drafted entire way minus 400m

nonsense

no many 800s whatsoever

in his peak years of '01 / '04 he ran precisely one 800 race

in mid-april !!!

ukathleticscoach wrote:Underperforming is stretching it for a 1:44 runner running 1:46 several times

learn from the stats fool

he never ran a 800 in '01

Why would a 1:41/2 guy not run more 800's especially when he keeps getting beat at 1500m

i marvel at your dumbness

why does he have to ???

what law of athletics says he has to run an event he is not interested in ???

There is no way 1:41/2 guy is going to never better 1:46 its half the length of the straight!

fool

he ran 1'46 in last 800 of athens & that was a last 800 which was effectively speeding up every meter of it !!!

People keep harking back to that 1:46 last 800m in a slow race. The 3 runners who managed that never ran 1:41/2. The lack of ability to do that is why they concentrated on 1500's

utterly clueless

that was in games, when guys are expected to be in best shape of their lives age-permitting

age-permitting only applied to silva

he had 1'44.9 / 3'30.0pbs from '02 but i have little doubt he was in shape of his life in games

his 1'44.9 was in san sebastian, a meet where he finished 3rd in a clearly tactical affair as 2nd was yiampoy in 1'44.3 & yiampoy ran 1'42.9 just 10/7 later in brussels

silva was good for dipping into 1'43s in '02 & at his athens peak probably

1'42-high/1'43-flat / 3'28-mid/high

as anyone with a clue about the sport knew it was going to be effectively an 800 race as no one was going to pace hicham like '99wc, especially ramzi his compatriot

the key was to be in best 800 shape possible for a 1500 race

learn something about peak-shape

May I congratulate you on a thoroughly astute & ascerbic post.

I'd like to further add another example to yours of Leo.

Many years ago on another forum, fools were drivelling on about Webb's 1'46 best upto that year being "good value" for a "strength Miler".

I told them his 1'46 was utter drivel & he just hadn't been in a proper 800 where he intent on running it seriously.

I got a lot of flak for this opinion ( as usual ).

Then he turns up & faces Reed, a top-level 800 guy, who is real big dog in race & he chases the clock with Webb forced to run at a pace he looked startled at, at bell, but Webb's immense endurance kept him together on 2nd lap for

1'43.8 !!

A time that could have been nearer 1'43-low for Webb if he had ever had the chance to re-run that race at slightly slower opening lap.

Anyhows, there was no more drivel about Webb being a "Strength Miler" that season as already had been told to anyone beforehand who could read & think.

Sour Grapes wrote:

Again - pointless speculation. If he thought he was capable of running 1-41/42 he may have switched to 800 to avoid El G. This is like coming from the other direction and saying David Rudisha because of his 800 speed could run 3-28 for 1500. The 800 and 1500 require different energy systems. Ryans 1-39 ?? Whats that all about ?

Ventolin thinks Ryan could have run 1:39

Once again Ventolin:

=================

He has answered the question himself in the seminar:

'he didn't see why he should compete at 800 below the level of what he could do if he trained for it'

How is running 1:41 going to be below any level. As you know EPO is more effective over 1500m than 800m

Hey Ventster... Why not move to Antarctica?

I feel like I'm on LSD when I read this thread.

ukathleticscoach wrote:How is running 1:41 going to be below any level

it appears he never even tried in training, so he has little idea

As you know EPO is more effective over 1500m than 800m

what has this crap got to do with anything here ???