Is spanking child abuse?

Stefan Molyneux on this issue:

http://youtu.be/jtqbHL-y83I

TheHobbyHobbler wrote:

As the kids say, tl;dr

Here's my main issue with spanking, hitting, beating, etc...

It's really only defensible if done in a disinterested, "what's best for junior" sort of way. But this is often not the case, and "disciplining" because a convenient outlet and nice cover for parental anger. The parent gets pissed, and has carte blanche to take it out physically.

Think what you want about Alice Miller (a psychologist and writer), but I always bought her argument that parents who hit are essentially acting out the violence that was done to them by their parents. That's why it feels right and seems right.

Basically agree. I would say that getting hit by someone else is never "what's best for me" regardless of who "me" is, how old they are, who is doing the hitting or what is going on in the mind of the hitter.

Lol...people.are still sticking with the whole "hitting" thing. Damn drama queens.

Real-er answer wrote:

I'll simplify it for dolts like you: You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

This expression was invented by a clever entomologist as a way of exposing people who talk above their heads.

Infrequent spanking is an effective parenting technique. That being said, there are a lot of non-corporal techniques that are effective in their own right. Used frequently, spanking loses it's effectiveness and can quickly escalate into abuse. What AP did (if the reports are correct about bloody wounds, etc are correct) would fall into the abuse category. Any time I see a person who has multiple kids from multiple women, it is usually a safe assumption that the guy is not a great father. So I am not surprised that someone who has fathered 7 kids by multiple women would not be the best at dealing with the stresses of raising a kid.

That being said, a lot of people have posted links to psychological studies that go both ways. The one thing a person should consider when looking at these reports is that psychologists tend to be crazier than the rest of us:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200909/why-shrinks-have-problems

Just food for thought.

I can always tell which kids are spanked and which ones don't when in public. Kids who get the time outs are the out of control little brats who throw temper tantrums in public embarrassing the parents.

Kids who get spanked never dare act up in public. A look from the parent will make him or her stop. Call it fear or what you will, but a parent has to be able to control their children.

In our family all six of us were not only spanked, but at times were were hit with belts, shoes, garden hose etc. We all did excellent in school and all went on to college. We have a great relationship with our parents and I personally thank them for the way they raised me. I never even thought about doing drugs, staying out after curfew or ever ever raised my voice to mom or dad.

My cousins (3 of them) were raised opposite. Their parents are such nice people. She is my aunt by blood and I love her, she is so nice to everyone, gentle and loving. They never ever spanked their kids. It was always the got to the corner or your room and the time out type of parents. They gently talked to their kids and tried to teach them right from wrong. Results?? the girl did alright. She ended up going to college and became successful. The two boys never went to high school. They started using drugs at 13 years old. One has been in prison 3 times. Car accidents, drunk drivings, have kids with different women and still live at home with their parents even though they're both over 25. They also mistreat their parents, they don't pay rent and have taken over the house their parents pay for. Their parents now sleep in a little trailer in the yard so their beloved boys can be more comfortable in the house. Those kids grew up spoiled like no other. They got everything they desired and were out of control from the time they were little. I feel bad for my aunt and her husband, but it's their fault. Had those boys been raised by my parents, they would not be this way. Just saying.

September 16, 2014

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/losangeles/play?id=11540280

Objective standard to discipline

Phil Jackson believes in discipline.

Stop before you leave a mark.

Mainstream culture should not steer your home - Does God?

This sways across culture lines - some conservative - others not

Noone condones child abuse.

Some believe discipline teach life lessons.

Repair this person and reform.

Bad example wrote:

Pointing Out the Obvious wrote:

If one were to appear in court after disciplining one's wife....

You should never discipline your wife for anything which makes this a silly comparison. A parent SHOULD discipline their child.

Interestingly the same argument weas made in respect of wives at the time when the law changed so as to make than illegal.

when she was two, our daughter got out of a restaurant with a revolving door ahead of us when we were trying to get the stroller out and she ran right between two parked cars and was about to enter the street where a car was zooming toward her and never would have seen her when her mother yelled and she stopped and got out of the road. We didn't have to hit her or anything or even yell at her. She had gotten the message and never did that again. I similarly got the message when I was two or three and opened the back door of our moving car in Lagos, Nigeria. My parents didn't have to hit me, but just to yell in the moment about the danger. I never forgot that. Hitting is counterproductive and studies show that it does not improve discipline and causes numerous problems, including being passed on to the next generation, a cycle that my father himself broke with us.

It is specious to claim that children behave well, do not run out into the street etc because of being spanked. Children are subject to a number of influences, and also come preprogrammed to a large degree. Some babies/children are an easy dream, others are difficult from day one.2yr olds run into the street. They learn not to. You don't see 10 year olds running into the street, with people saying,".....he wasn't spanked when he was younger". The American College of Pediatrics does not recommend corporal punishment for toddlers. There is nothing to explicitly recommend it as a parenting tool except anecdotal evidence.

Despite its common acceptance, and even advocacy for its use,16 spanking is a less effective strategy than time-out or removal of privileges for reducing undesired behavior in children. Although spanking may immediately reduce or stop an undesired behavior, its effectiveness decreases with subsequent use. The only way to maintain the initial effect of spanking is to systematically increase the intensity with which it is delivered, which can quickly escalate into abuse. Thus, at best, spanking is only effective when used in selective infrequent situations.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/101/4/723.full

The most common examples cited here for the benefits of spanking are childrens' behavior in public. This has little to do with the children, and much to do with the parents. The children fear their parents. 2-3yr old children will run around, make noise etc.