It was hilarious to watch the PC deniers defend them.
Wrong. This thread is a hilarious anti-Kenyan circlejerk. It is hilarious to watch them completely deny facts to prop up their misconceptions and biases.
Circlejerkers: they broke so many records in the 90's! they're all on epo!
"PC" logicians: actually many records have been set in other events in recent years and the amount of depth is still quite impressive when you realize there is no money in t-...
Circlejerkers: ...yeah but dey broke so many records then! doped!!!
These boards really are quite cynical. I try to at least stay positive that not all WRs or stars are as forty as everyone else seems to think on here. Unless someone has evidence against them, why would I assume they're guilty? Doesn't seem fair to me.
At the end of the discussion, I think there is nothing strange that the Kenyan records are still from that era.
The three main reasons :
1) Really great talents (Kiptanui, Ngeny, Komen...)
2) Very fast races (because EG, Gebrselassie and Bekele)
3) Interest of the organizers to create Always the best opportunity for running fast.
Today, we can find the same reasons for understanding the boom of the Marathons.
1) Yeah, the really great talents all appeared in the EPO era. Nothing strange about that.
2) Yeah, Kenyans ran fast because they were against other really great talents that all appeared in the EPO era in Morocco and Ethiopia. Nothing strange about that.
3) Yeah, not much point in organizing WR attempts when testing came in, when all the WRs had been put out of sight during the EPO era (until cheater shoes, kangeroo mondo tracks, and wavelight pacing).
I have no idea what the EPO testing difference was among Kenyas, Ethiopians, Moroccans, and the rest during this period.
There was NO testing of athletes from these countries during this period, unlike most of the rest of the world. Certainly their own national federations did not carry out any sort of testing on them, and the Kenyans only started being tested about 5 years ago! Not sure if Ethiopians training at home are even tested to this day by the Ethioian federation!? And not sure what the WA policy is at moment for carrying out random testing of many African athletes that train for large sections of time at altitude. I know in the past they were reluctant to even attempt such testing as the samples were usually untestable by the time they reached the nearest laboratory facilities. I believe now there is one in Kenya, hence the more testing (and positive tests) of Kenyan athletes in recent years. At least they are attempting to clean up.
The only time they would have been tested in the period under discussion (and don't forget there wasn't a test for EPO until late 2000, and only then it wasn't reliable until an improved one came out in 2005) for steroids and other PEDs would have been by the IAAF at meets in the summer.
Hell yeah, the first ever drug to increase endurance hitting the market and all these crazy times happened, and then as soon as testing was brought in for this drug, the times went backwards again until cheater shoes, but it's just correlation not causation.
Hell yeah, my neighbour was run over by a speeding car yesterday, but I told him he shouldn't sue because on the same day an asteroid hit Jupiter, so he may as well blame the asteroid.
Fisher would be #3 all-time on Kenyan list in the 10,000! Only 6 seconds off Tergat's time and 3 off Kemboi and ahead of Wanjiru, Kipchoge, Masai - not to mention a whole lot of legends from other countries. 2016-19 consistently runs practically the same 5,000 time (13:30). 3 years later puts down back to back 13:12s.
Yup. Look at the top 10 all time American lists for 5000 10000, both genders. What got in the water around 2009? Salazar came out with his white paper basically saying if you want to compete you gotta find a way to cheat and all of a sudden Amercans are running 40 seconds faster than Nenow and Jennings. Oh, but it's the science and the better diet. Ha!
There was NO testing of athletes from these countries during this period, unlike most of the rest of the world. Certainly their own national federations did not carry out any sort of testing on them, and the Kenyans only started being tested about 5 years ago! Not sure if Ethiopians training at home are even tested to this day by the Ethioian federation!? And not sure what the WA policy is at moment for carrying out random testing of many African athletes that train for large sections of time at altitude. I know in the past they were reluctant to even attempt such testing as the samples were usually untestable by the time they reached the nearest laboratory facilities. I believe now there is one in Kenya, hence the more testing (and positive tests) of Kenyan athletes in recent years. At least they are attempting to clean up.
The only time they would have been tested in the period under discussion (and don't forget there wasn't a test for EPO until late 2000, and only then it wasn't reliable until an improved one came out in 2005) for steroids and other PEDs would have been by the IAAF at meets in the summer.
Deano surely you are aware that the Kenyan 1,000, 1,500, 3,000, 2 mile and 5,000m records were all set by athletes managed and coached by Brit Kim McDonald in his London base. That is from his star triumvirate of Noah Ngeny, Moses Kiptanui and Daniel Komen. Care to smear the other athletes he coached like Bob Kennedy, Peter Elliott, Sonia O'Sullivan while you're at it? Are you accusing Kim of operating an EPO ring. I'm sure all of the athletes he managed like Steve Ovett, John Walker and Marcus O'Sullivan would love to know this about their late manager. Oh and your proof? Fast times of course, and literally no contemporaneous proof from athletes who were there. Many of them have said as much in Letsrun threads if you cared to look.
There was NO testing of athletes from these countries during this period, unlike most of the rest of the world. Certainly their own national federations did not carry out any sort of testing on them, and the Kenyans only started being tested about 5 years ago! Not sure if Ethiopians training at home are even tested to this day by the Ethioian federation!? And not sure what the WA policy is at moment for carrying out random testing of many African athletes that train for large sections of time at altitude. I know in the past they were reluctant to even attempt such testing as the samples were usually untestable by the time they reached the nearest laboratory facilities. I believe now there is one in Kenya, hence the more testing (and positive tests) of Kenyan athletes in recent years. At least they are attempting to clean up.
The only time they would have been tested in the period under discussion (and don't forget there wasn't a test for EPO until late 2000, and only then it wasn't reliable until an improved one came out in 2005) for steroids and other PEDs would have been by the IAAF at meets in the summer.
Deano surely you are aware that the Kenyan 1,000, 1,500, 3,000, 2 mile and 5,000m records were all set by athletes managed and coached by Brit Kim McDonald in his London base. That is from his star triumvirate of Noah Ngeny, Moses Kiptanui and Daniel Komen. Care to smear the other athletes he coached like Bob Kennedy, Peter Elliott, Sonia O'Sullivan while you're at it? Are you accusing Kim of operating an EPO ring. I'm sure all of the athletes he managed like Steve Ovett, John Walker and Marcus O'Sullivan would love to know this about their late manager. Oh and your proof? Fast times of course, and literally no contemporaneous proof from athletes who were there. Many of them have said as much in Letsrun threads if you cared to look.
Don't quite get your point! Yes, I am aware of who Kim McDonald was, and while he coached some of the athletes mentioned, he was only a 'manager' of others. I do not recall ever reading that Mcdonald had any influence on the career or training of Ovett. Eliott I am aware of.
What you need to consider is when he was coaching/managing these athletes, where they were in their career projectories, and also you need to figure in the fact that certain African countries had no out of season testing (until very recently) by their own federations. An athlete from most European nations (and others around the World) would have had to submit their whereabouts for testing every day of their careers. This would not have been the case for Ngeny, for instance. It would therefore be much easier for an athlete from a nation that has no testing, to dope at strategic times of the year, probably when training at altitude in some remote part of Africa where even the IAAF testers would seldom if ever visit due to logistical proximity to nearest testing lab in Europe.
In addition, just because 1 athlete in one era is doping, it doesn't necessarily mean that another athlete with the same coach in a different era was also doping with EPO. If the athlete wasn't competing at elite level between c. '93 and '06, then it is less likely they were using EPO. Unfortunately, due to sheer lack of testing, many African athletes and those from countries around the world deemed too poor to afford OOS random testing for their athletes, are more likely to have used EPO during this era (especially before 2000, when the first test for EPO became available).
I think McDonald started to train Kenyans in the mid 80's, but the real effects of his training weren't realised until the mid 90's, when he coached Ngeny, Kiptanui and Komen. It could be just a coincidence that all those WRs were set by Kenyans in the late 90's (not to mention the likes of EL G and Geb knocking huge chunks of the WRs), at a time when there was no test for EPO. Or it could be a bit more than that. And even if any of those did take EPO, it doesn't automatically follow that their coach/agent was aware of it.
However, it is unfortunate (but should be remembered) that Mcdonald did have a close working relationship with Dieter Hogen. He who went on to head the Kimbia stable and was a product of the GDR system in the '80's, having been trained by Berndt Diessner alongside Straub and Beyer; the latter of course was named in documents uncovered after the German unification as one of a number of athletes on a state sponsored drug scheme; and one wonders how Straub ran so far above himself in one solitary race in Moscow! Hogen is also married to ex German marathon runner, Uta Pippig, herself banned for PED use in 1998 (caught by a random out of season test).
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I came across this thread (see link below) from here 15 years ago, in which one of the discussion points (PEDs) was attempted to be dismissed by someone stating that they knew/believed that Aficans were clean- 'Ask people that actually know the sport (as opposed to those who subscribe to the "they ran fast so they're on drugs" dogma) and you will find that the most suspicious athlete believes the KIM group, and the majority of Kenyans in general, to be clean. For instance, Jon Brown who has been perhaps the most outspoken against cheating and has not been bashful in naming names was recently quoted to the effect of, "by and large the Africans are clean."'
I know there has been many threads on this same topic, but the same information always seems to come up. Besides what is written in "Train Hard, Win Easy" and the duathlon.com interview with Bob Kennedy can anyone elaborate o...
Now, while of course it is a nonsense to state all Africans are doping, unfortunately their recent record of drug busts (in the same way as Russia, but without the sanctioned state sponsoring) is not great and I certainly do not buy into the argument quoted above, especially not for the period 93 - 06.